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Mirror Mirror on the Wall
Episode No. 84

Conversation Five. We take this week to talk about identity. How do we think God sees us and how does that affect how we interact with Him and with others. We continue our series in Conversations as we learn how to know and be fully known by others.

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Josh – Hello hello hello hello we’re just 2 normal dudes trying to live this jesus life. My name’s Josh.

Andrew – Hey I’m Andrew and we are this jesus life podcast Josh my friend. Yeah.

Josh – Dude dude I just had this thought as I was saying the words that we’ve said well over probably 90 times with the amount of retakes that get added to our 84 episodes that we’ve recorded.

Andrew – Yes, I’m sure yes, 84

Josh – Actually I think there was even episodes in there. We recorded we just never released because they were just bad. So maybe it’s maybe it’s closer to a hundred times that I’ve said that statement and I just had the realization of I have no idea what I’m saying like doesn’t even occur to me the words that are coming out of my mouth and.

Andrew – I think so yeah, yes. Ah, that’s so funny. Dude yeah you are a dude you know how in Zoolander it’s like when the music is cued. He just starts walking like.

Josh – In that moment I was like oh yeah, that’s what we say that’s crazy. That’s a good line.

Andrew – Yeah I kind of feel that way where I’m like and music’s going and Josh is talking hey we are this jesus life podcast. That’s how I do it man. Oh that’s so funny. Yeah man.

Josh – That’s but that’s so funny. My brother for his senior photos took all of his pictures I was of his faces blue steel from zolander like every single one of his foot even has one where he’s like in a swing. He’s like.

Andrew – Yeah’s so good. Ah so good. No yeah, ah that’s great man. That’s great. Dude How’s ah, how’s your week going I got.

Josh – Ah, dumb can I make these let pretty funny. He can be a funny dude.

Andrew – Before I tell you before I ask I gotta say I’ve had quite a week man I started in pa went to Nashville for like 24 hours came back I was like deathly sick a day before Nashville and had all kinds of bone broth. And garlic and all these crazy remedies and felt amazing the next morning and went and dude. It’s been a week I’ll tell you what How’s yours been.

Josh – Yeah, pretty good busy. There’s a lot of things and 50 different directions going on that you try to manage then then you get to the end of the week and you’re like I’m not sure I accomplished anything helpful in the 60 hours or whatever. Yeah.

Andrew – And not sure I helped in any way. Yeah, yeah, that’s fair.

Josh – 1 of those things you’re like I don’t know stuff was done. Nothing seemed to burn down I think things are moving forward but I’m not positive that’s kind one. The things.

Andrew – Yeah, things are still on Fire. Maybe a little less. Maybe not? yeah I get it I get it dude have you? Okay, if you were feeling sick and I offered you a warm. Mug of bone broth. How would you feel about that to drink.

Andrew – Did I lose you did you have a heart attack at that question. Ah I I thought you died I can hear you great now. Yeah man. Um, yeah I was just asking. You know how do you.

Josh – I That was weird I thought you died halfway through your question. Can you hear me weird I can hear you now but like you were talking and then you got to bone broth and you just died.

Andrew – Oh that’s funny I finished my question and thought wow I just shocked Josh so badly. He’s speechless for like 8 seconds um yeah man, no I was just asking like.

Josh – I Thought it was like I lost to answer. He just had a heart attack and died.

Josh – Now Dig you the whole question.

Andrew – Would you be open to to drinking a mug of hot bone broth warm or hot bone broth If you’re feeling sick like does that gross you out does it sound awesome like wear you out on that. Yeah.

Josh – It sounds disgusting. Yeah 100% gross what is the other thing I was watching something recently and they were eating bone marrow which I know is like a delicacy and it tastes amazing but couldn’t do it like ah everything a.

Andrew – Right? right? right? yeah.

Josh – Just even thinking the picture is gonna make me throw up again. No thank you.

Andrew – Ah that’s well you know I’ve had bit bone marrow before and it’s actually it is super good I’ve had bone marrow risotto. So I wasn’t like scooping the marrow out. It was just already in the risotta and it was really good but um, dude I so. Feeling really bad the night before I was supposed to leave for Nashville and like I had tested myself for covid a couple times and like literally I I knew I was I knew it was a cold you know allergy based cold but ah I had been like pounding. Tea and lemon water and taken medicine and all the stuff all day salt water gurgling dude eating raw garlic 3 times in that day that was intense. Um, but it’s like that worked this is.

Josh – Um, did you just did you just Google Weird Hippie recipes to make you feel better.

Andrew – No I’m married to Jana and she knows a lot of this stuff and I’m like you know what? I’m willing to try anything because I really really wanted to go and I’m really glad I did it was like a really great trip. It was short but like really impactful I can tell you about that later. But um, anyway, like.

Josh – Yeah, yeah.

Andrew – Yeah, but basically I felt that way I’m like listen I’ll try about anything at this point because I felt like a dead man walking and eating the garlic was was terrible. But I think made a he um actually helped dude. Right? after I’d eaten my third piece of garlic for the day like whole piece raw straight up. Dude I had 1 in the morning had 1 at noon and had one a couple hours before bed like the first one I almost threw up because I did not plug my nose.

Josh – Third piece of garlic. Oh my gosh.

Andrew – But I learned if you pluck your nose chew really quickly and then start drinking water and just swallow it while you’re still chewing. It’s not so terrible. Dude if you eat of ever eat a piece of garlic Raw always plug your nose otherwise you will lose it like I almost threw up.

Josh – Ah.

Andrew – Every chew it was. It was bad that first time but right? yeah dude yeah it was a clove. You know there’s like the whole bulb but then like single cloves so I ate 3

Josh – It’s the texture too like small chunks of garlic’s fine but I can only imagine like oh ah, no thank you. Yeah, I’m just pi eating like Bob like ah like a like an Apple or something you just when you’re taking chunks out of it like with the white paper and all or whatever they call it.

Andrew – Ah, right, right? now if it was roasted I could do that if it was roasted I’ve actually had a roasted bulb of garlic before with like olive oil and you like pick it out exactly you pick it out and spread it on ah on bread and that’s awesome.

Josh – Yeah, but then it’s like creamy and like soft. That’s a different world. You know.

Andrew – But dude raw garlic is intense I’ll tell you what But after all that had happened and it was like I don’t know like eight zero P M and I was like ready to go to sleep. You know, um, Jane had had just made this awesome. Ah, turkey bone broth because it was the day after easter and anyway she’s like hey she text me I think I went showered or something she text me. It’s like I got a hot mug of bone broth ready for you to drink and I I thought that sounded super gross. But. I came out and I’m like to told her I’d try about anything so I took a sip of it expecting it to like gross me out dude I kid you not it was I’ve thought about drinking bone breath a lot of times since that moment I I just deeply enjoyed. Drinking straight up bone broth and and I do it again. Ah for sure whether I’m sick or not it was like it was really good man I wouldn’t ever do that cold I don’t think but but it was ah it was like a nice nice coffee temperature. You know and I sat by the fire and drank my bone broth and then fell asleep. Ah no du so tears. Ah, a whole ah whole mug.

Josh – Yeah, oh gro is even worse that picturing like maybe a shot of it. Just co it down. Not not this moment where you’re gonna enjoy it by the fire. Oh you put some. You put some cream and sugar in it or just straight.

Andrew – No bro. It was just straight. It was just straight but my my throat had been hurting so bad all day that like that was the thing I took one little sip and it tasted good and then I realized like all of a sudden. My throat didn’t hurt at all I’m like this just.

Josh – Ah.

Andrew – Feel like a human again. So yeah man I’m I’m going to drink bone broth again in my life for sure and I did it by the fire out of a mug a full mug. So yeah, man, that’s my that’s my story right? All the best soup. Yeah.

Josh – The Po which I know like bone broths in a lot of things like they cook with it pretty regularly so I get that. But yeah, but yeah by itself I don’t know just the idea even now it’s made grosses me out. Yeah.

Andrew – And it was solid. Yeah, you just boil bones in water with some right right.

Josh – The fact that it could code solidify like that grosses me out. Oh no, thank you I don’t know if I just lost Andrew again or a child came into the room but he’s gone. Um, yeah, well that’s what I figured.

Andrew – I A child. Yeah and might have some weird noises but you go ahead? man. Yeah.

Josh – Yeah, something we talk about pretty regularly here on the podcast is fostering our relationship with Jesus and our role in that process and you know it’s not our job to make all the necessary changes by ourselves. Ah, in our lives and to our character and becoming more like Jesus you know I think that’s where christianity gets exhausting like we’ll actually even talk about that today in this conversation number 5 but um, our primary responsibility is to foster relationship with Jesus and then be an active participant in that relationship. Um, so there’s gonna be things that Jesus is gonna ask you to do and not do probably don’t seem as overwhelming as maybe some of the sins that you’re dealing with on a regular basis and seem to always come back. The fact that you know try to beat those off by yourself. Um, but it all comes back down to fostering relationship with Jesus. So. You know dwell is one of those tools that helps you do that. So maybe reading just Ai n’t your thing I get it. It’s fine. You know you’re probably more holy than the rest of us since you know that’s how jewish custom you know, passed down truth was oral so you know you’re just you’re just being like the jews with with god. But dwell is a bible or app that actually reads the bible to you by people that are actually passionate and care about the the bible so they read it in a way that’s engaging and it’s designed to really give give you a jumping off point to continue that conversation with god um, so if you haven’t had an opportunity to check out dwell yet. Um i. Highly recommend it. You can go to this jesus life podcast dot com forward slash duwell and get your account to stay but Andrew dude I don’t know if you’re back or if you’re still there but do tell us about what we’re in the midst of right now.

Andrew – Yeah, I’m back come back conversations. Dude we’re going through if if you listen to the past few weeks you know but ah, we’re on conversation 5 this is a ah tool. That we’ve been working through Josh I forget the name of where this comes from but it’s ah it’s a series of conversations meant to be 1 on one you know of like this is how you get to know somebody Josh and I believe that like as christians we should be really great at relationship. Um, we believe this matters a lot because like the way you reach people with with the lord is by showing them how you live and and being good to them in relationship. Um, at least in my experience. That’s that’s the most effective thing you can do. Um, so this is a way that that we’re trying to model basically like here’s how you build a real relationship with somebody. Um, and also here’s how you build relationship with the lord. Every question we’re asking you can apply directly through prayer life. We have some cool biblical backing. That goes along with these so last week we talked about really like family origin stuff of like how did the way you grew up and ah affect the way you see the world this week it’s it’s much more. Um, how do you relate to Jesus? How do you relate to the work. Ah, Jesus did and like what’s your relationship with the lord like the first question we’re going to talk about is how did you feel sitting there with Jesus and there’s a video we watched where it’s like okay imagine yourself sitting in a room alone with a mirror in front of you and on the mirror is written every. Every sin from your life. Every decision you made that you regret like all the things you probably don’t want to look at are sitting right? there in front of you on a mirror so you see yourself surrounded in this writing and then Jesus comes in and starts to have a conversation with you and then talks about how like. Yeah I’ve taken that away like that’s gone like that’s some rough stuff you know like he sees it understands it and then it then kind of shifts to like hey there’s there’s Grace. There’s forgiveness I don’t see you as the sin I see you differently than than maybe you see yourself. So. Anyway, that’s that’s a bit of background and there’s a couple rules in how to have these conversations one that’s really very important is is confidentiality. You know like keep it between yourself and the other person who you’re building trust and relationship with Josh and I are breaking that rule obviously.

Andrew – Because you’re hearing a recording of it right now if you’re listening um so because of that knowing that we’re doing this and in what’s ah, really a public manner. We. Ah you know we’re going to do our best to be vulnerable and honest, but there might be times along this series where we have to kind of pull it back a little bit. If we don’t have permission from others to share as openly about something or if it’s just something that’s like yeah I’m not cool with the world hearing that yet. So keep that between myself and god or myself and my trusted friends. So. Anyway I hope that’s a good setup Josh but that’s that’s kind of where we’re going today is like how do you see yourself in relationship with with Jesus pretty much.

Josh – So yeah, the other part of this conversation too that I appreciate is it starts to it starts to get into maybe some faulty thinking that we have about how we interact with God or how God sees us specifically and.

Andrew – Yeah.

Josh – I Think it’s it’s it’s where we find freedom. It’s where we find Um, what’s the word I’m looking for I don’t remember the words. It’s still early in the morning for me folks. Yeah, kind of it’s where we find.

Andrew – Forgiveness.

Josh – Oh shoot I had it too in the use of forgiveness and you you threw me off so this is 100% Andrea his fault now. Um, just good I don’t know it’s yeah I don’t remember the words but it doesn’t matter I guess um, but like.

Andrew – Oh shoot man Freedom Restoration I don’t know.

Josh – So much of christianity feels exhausting when we’re doing it wrong and often it’s because we have the wrong view of of God We have the wrong view of how we interact with God We have the wrong view of how God views us and that’s where that exhaustion comes from and it doesn’t have to be that way like it should feel.

Andrew – In.

Josh – Like a light burden. You know it should feel extremely fruitful. There’s definitely going to be difficult um things that Jesus ask you to do in the midst of it but because the weight of it doesn’t sit on your shoulders. It’s just on his shoulders. It’s it’s a lot easier to carry unless we try to take control of the whole process and then it’s exhausting. You know it’s.

Andrew – Um, yeah for sure.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah, yeah, and.

Josh – Pretty big weight to carry on our own. But yeah, um, after watching that video I know you haven’t had a chance to watch that video if you’re listening but you can always go to our website in our show notes for this show. You’ll have a link to purchase this. Exercise for lack of better tumor experience from trueface we don’t get any kickbacks from that one I should reach out that be sweet, but it’d be worth it’d be worth the twenty bucks or whatever is it cost to to download and get those access to those videos and start having these kind of conversations.

Andrew – Yeah.

Josh – Yeah, with a trusted friend because I think ah a good portion of it is a rewiring piece for you and your own mind and how you view certain things but it’s also a healing piece in the midst of that you know healing comes with rewiring oftentimes and then third you know being fully known by someone and knowing someone fully and starting to practice.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah.

Josh – That type of community is Jesus you know, desires us to have with with one another is only going to kind of create a forest fire around you as it starts to spread so good. Good forest fire one that brings life and not destruction. There’s probably a better term than forest fire. But I don’t know.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah.

Andrew – Yeah, positive 1 right? where right? young man. Yeah yeah, um.

Josh – So do do you want to jump into that first question as you were sitting in the imaginary white room with white chairs ah with a mirror in between you and Jesus was there first off what did Jesus look like what was the color of his skin did he have hair did he not have hair.

Andrew – Right? break with the mirror. Right? Ah, that’s funny, right? teared I have no idea how Jesus looked.

Josh – See match the picture that we put up on our walls. Um or is it completely different and second how did you feel sitting there having the conversation that was presented to us.

Andrew – Ah, yeah in my course bearded fairly long hair is a little bit Jewish Strong comely carpenter you know? Ah, yeah, man just like ah like a dude I’d want to hang out with is is how it looks.

Josh – I I’m gonna say he looked Jewish Let’s go.

Andrew – Um, probably wearing a robe which is weird because I’m sitting there and you know in Chacos and jeans and walks this robed guy starts talking me like he knows me well. Ah I but say Chacos and jeans because I’m wearing Chacos and jeans ah hint.

Josh – Interesting.

Josh – I thought you had a I thought you had to give up your chocolates when you move out of the state of Colorado I thought that was a rule.

Andrew – And I always think of no I mean you can take me out of Colorado but you can’t take Colorado Colorado out of me, you know so ah man which I side note I just wonder if I’m going to wind up back into Colorado someday.

Josh – I Know you are So yeah, there’s a church plant that would love your help. So.

Andrew – I’ve had this like weird sense about that. So yeah, probably because you’re sitting there praying like Andrew ah come come and bring your family back. You’re in the church plant which I don’t know if god calls me then cool. Yeah, right right.

Josh – Ah, and just and just bring the in-laws with you. Let them retire and then bring them with you? yeah.

Andrew – That’s the thing is everybody actually loved ah both sides of the family liked when we lived in Colorado better because they’re like we love coming to visit Colorado so now we don’t have reason to ah but I digress anyway, um, dude.

Josh – Which what you just heard Andrew say was Andrew’s families both of them believe that Colorado’s better than Pennsylvania that’s what I heard and Ohio sorry we got Ohio sorry barb.

Andrew – Yeah, and Ohio and Indiana but when we were like yeah, why don’t you guys just all move out here. They’re like they’re like oh no, we can never do that I’m like what the heck like come on if you love it like be yeah anyway.

Josh – Yeah, if you have enough if you have enough grandchildren for them. You’ll draw them in Andrew just keep producing them. Well not you producing them. But do your part.

Andrew – Neither here just keep just go go men and I yeah, all right all right? Yeah, ah so other than sitting in what I can only imagine is an insane asylum being all white with a white chair and a mirror. Um, I’m just kidding. But that’s how it sounds um, so dude. Yeah ah I could imagine sitting there for a few minutes and and and feeling some regret um, feeling some like man I’m looking at this picture. Looking at myself and this mirror surrounded by all the things that I know are true that I shouldn’t have done you know in my life because in this moment I can only imagine them like you know I imagine. There will be something like this after we are physically dead. You know, um I know there’s there’s forgiveness as as followers of Christ I know there’s redemption in that but I personally still believe we might have a moment like this where we kind of. Understand all the ways we did and did not do god’s will and and then have that you know forgiveness moment to understand what Grace is all anew. So anyway, that’s a bit of speculation. But yeah man I think I’d start to feel regret. Um, maybe some shame. Maybe some like wow I wish wish I knew then? what I knew now you know like I wish I would have like I I can always even now I can look back a couple years and be like why did I not know that you know, um and if I was looking back at my whole life in a mirror. Um, or myself and looking about all the ways that I kind of send in a mirror. Be hard moment dude like that’s not ah, that’s not an easy thing so probably have some regret and shame is all I’m saying and and then to to come in and have Jesus walk in the door somebody I knew. Ah, deeply and that knew me fully um, would be like a weight lifted in a lot of ways. But then also maybe like I hope he doesn’t look at the mirror you know like I can imagine that thought running through my mind. Um. Followed by like catching my breath when he looks right at it examines it starts to talk about some of the things on there and then ah then yeah man like that. Um that moment of like just huge relief you know, like holding your breath. Ah.

Andrew – Waiting for like and what’s the verdict gonna be you know like was this too much. Um, but like huge relief followed by like real care. Ah real appreciation of of Grace received when Jesus like i. Already took care of all of this you know I don’t see this when I’m looking at you? Um I see somebody so who’s already forgiven and loved and known fully in spite of sin you know, not not because of good works. But in spite of. And it’s it’s because of who you are and who you chose to follow. So I don’t know hopefully that’s a good answer but that’s that’s ah how I take the question. What about you man? How do you feel in that that white room with the mirror.

Josh – Yeah, um, I’ll share from 2 perspectives because you know I’ve been on this journey for a handful of years now. So I know the right answer? Um, but you know I think of like walking into the room with the first time and and maybe even see the mirror. You don’t recognize. There’s a bunch of stuff written on but you see it and then someone you know from the other room tells you to sit down in the chair right next to the mirror and then you look at the mirror like oh oh crap or maybe it’s more like ah that’s interesting that dude did the same thing I did. Ah, you like and then you start to realize it’s you and you’re like oh shoot then it’s that moment of like you know like you know you’re in trouble but you haven’t been punished yet by your parents. You’re just like in limbo or you’re like oh this sucks or like you know you’re about to get caught. But you’re not actually caught yet. It’s like that moment. Yeah.

Andrew – Right? right. And wait till your dad gets home. Yeah yeah I.

Josh – Like ah shit it sucks. Um, it’s come to that moment. Um, but something I appreciate the video saying and and I think this is true. You know when Jesus walks to the room and and sits so next to you and you know sees the list. There’s ah, there’s a chuckle in his voice not because of what you’ve done. Um, but there’s a chuckle in his voice that this seems so overwhelming for him to overcome and he’s like not I’ve got this like this is this is nothing Josh um, not nothing like what you’ve done is nothing but this is nothing I can my my sacrifice outweighs all this um, let me shatter this mirror for you kind of thing. Um.

Andrew – Right? right.

Josh – I think that’s a ah big piece. So it’s this piece of like and and you said it too is you know someone that walks into the room that that you know fully knows you um and that you’ve engaged with for so long. So it’s not like you haven’t talked about majority if not all those things listed on those that board at some point. Anyway, so it’s if you haven’t then yeah I think there’s probably more shame and guilt in the midst of that. But you know if you have a good healthy confession life talking with jees about those things because it’s important to talk to jees about those things. Um. Maybe it’s like inside jokes not jokes but like inside understandings because I don’t want to talk about sitting in the light of jokes. But ah, where you know you’re like oh you remember that season I remember that season. She’s like I took care of that season. Remember how I got you out of that season you’re like yes, thank you Jesus.

Andrew – Right? right? Yeah, thank you.

Josh – Um, or you know remember everyone I rewired some things in your brain so that wasn’t a season anymore. You’re like yes, thank you Jesus. So maybe if it’s sitting there like not reunion because I feel like reunion is there’s been time wait like time apart. Um.

Andrew – Right? right.

Josh – But just like you know when a good buddy walks into the room and you’re you’re sitting there you you make eye contact and see each other. You’re like yo do what’s up. Um, you know you give that that simple bro hug which is hand in between ah you know like ah like you’re holding their hand but in between you to keep a little bit of barrier. So you’re not like fully embracing. Um, because you know we don’t want to be that guy. Ah that kind of that bro hug piece. Maybe Jesus. It’s a little more intimate and you’re you’re willing to go chest to chest my brother once told me or asked me and this has nothing to do with this but it made me think of this and I think it’s funny so I’ll share it I’ll let you guess which brother. But.

Andrew – Right? right.

Josh – Um, asked me when he was like I don’t know 16 maybe he goes hey has um has your nipple nipple ever touched another man’s nimple. Ah um, no I can say that’s never happened. He’s all mine hasre that’s weird and more than.

Andrew – Ah, ah, that’s such a funny question. Ah, ah, it’s funny man. It’s funny.

Josh – More than I wanted to know about you.

Josh – That’s funny. But yeah i. So I think there’s two sides I think there’s a season my life where like yeah I would have felt guilty I would have felt a so extreme amount of shame I would have been nervous when Jesus walked in the room. Would have felt like everything I was on that board identified me as a horrible person which we all are if we really think about it. But you know thank you Jesus for what he did that you know we’re a new creation now. But um. So I think and then the other side of it is you know, understanding what I understand today that I wish I understood a decade ago you know Jesus loves me Jesus Identity isn’t attached the identity Jesus give me is not attached to my behavior. You know I’m his no matter what. I get to live in that truth and you know he wants to walk with me to shape and mold me who he’s called me to be but that’s a process and it it takes time and as much as we may want to happen overnight we have to giverself Grace because Jesus already gave grace and not worry about other people think is usually the the big issue. You know we’re. Living this life for those that are watching our lives not for our own life and for for relationship Jesus but yeah, so both sides I get it I see him both and understand it been there but man this side so much easier to do this life with Jesus sorry like I don’t I would never go back.

Andrew – Ah, that’s cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, dude something a cool supporting scripture around this.

Josh – No thank you.

Andrew – Conversation is second corinthians five seventeen it says therefore if anyone is in Christ. He’s a new creation. The old has passed away behold. The new has come um man I love that verse and wanted to read it because. Like that’s that’s how I believe on all my best days. That’s how I believe god sees us as new creations. Um on my worst days or on my days that aren’t aren’t my best I do kind of slip back towards that like. Shoot I hope I’m doing well enough I hope I’m ah hope I’m living fully the way I should you know what? I mean like I I believe it in my heart. But sometimes I forget it with my head and slip back towards that like I just need to give more effort I have to double down on this. I can do this I could choose that whatever like that white knuckling mentality and we’ve talked about um, but yeah man, it’s ah it’s a good thing to know like god views this as new creations. You know people who have chosen to follow Christ. Sees us as a new creation. We are a new creation. The old has passed away. The new has come you know so anyway I just wanted to call that out before we go a little bit further in this conversation because it it matters pretty deeply of like our Andrew Josh just making all this stuff up like no like.

Josh – Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh – Yes, yes, we are 98% of what we say is made up.

Andrew – There’s actually quite a lot in the bible. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but there’s actually there is quite a lot in the bible about how god views us and you can look up identity in Christ versus you can Google that if ah if you’ve never looked into that or if you. Heard me talk about that just now and is like no Andrew’s way wrong. That’s a super wrong take on all of this maybe could be um, but there’s also a lot of ah of good stuff to be found and like how does how does god see us in light of Christ and what Christ did so.

Josh – Yeah, no, it’s good. What do I think this is this is good to this ephesians one 4 through 6 and it’s right along with this conversation I think it sets us up for the next questions too. But even.

Andrew – Just wanted to to call that out before we kind of keep plugging along for sure.

Josh – As he chose us before the foundation of the world. This is god that we should be wholly and blameless before him let that sink in for a second holy and blameless before him in his in love he predeine us as. For adoption to himself as sons or daughters through Christ Jesus like let that sink in for a second that you’re a son or a daughter of the most high like that gives you authority that gives you place on the throne don’t think of this from like a power standpoint. That’s not helpful.

Andrew – Right? right? yep.

Josh – Um, but think of this as a position standpoint of like oh yeah yeah I’m god yeah and according to the according to his to the purpose of his will to the praise of his glorious grace in which he has blessed us in the beloved in Jesus I don’t know what version of scripture that is but um.

Andrew – Um, you’re in the family of the king. Yeah.

Andrew – Sure.

Josh – I Think it’s worth worth putting out there like that’s that’s a big deal, especially the holy and blameless I don’t know about you but I don’t feel innocent like it’s not a normal emotion. Um that comes through you because you’re like yeah, all the all the wrongs that I’ve caused people throughout the day you know the times that I was short with them the times that.

Andrew – Um, great.

Josh – Didn’t fully see them the times that I didn’t engage the times that was harsh whatever it happens to be for you but like I don’t feel blameless but that’s what Jesus did on the cross like he took. He took the blame and he took on the the role of forgiving as the sacrifice and like.

Andrew – Um, yep.

Josh – We get to now live in that like that’s a that’s a big deal So most of us don’t feel wholly blameless most of us at least don’t feel the emotion of being a son or a daughter like maybe from a head knowledge if you spent any time in the church. You’re like yeah I get it but not from position or security standpoint. We don’t feel that emotion and I think that’s.

Andrew – Right.

Josh – Worth doing some work on your own to kind of think through and process through what of this I believe because this is the new creation that Andrew was talking about or I guess Paul was talking about to the Corinthians that Andrew quoted like that’s that’s the piece of it like you are a new creation that the old is gone. The new has has come to pass.

Andrew – Yeah, great.

Josh – Um, or come come into existence I should say not past like that’s you you have a lot more access to things that you probably didn’t realize you had access to before.

Andrew – Yeah.

Andrew – Right? right? Dude maybe we should? Ah, maybe we should combine questions 2 and 3 in light of this what we just talked about question 2 is like do these truths align with what you were taught what you were taught or what you learned when you were younger. Um, but they’re referring to what we just talked about and and question 3 says why is it harder to fully accept who Jesus says we are as new creations instead of wanting to work to clean up our mess in order to get closer to him I feel like we could probably weave in like how did you How did you learn about this when you were younger or not um and and you know is it harder to accept these things or not so I don’t know if you want to go or I don’t have fully thought. Yeah yeah, go ahead.

Josh – Yeah I think yeah I think from ah from a salvation standpoint the evangelical church and evangelical families um have a good grasp on this piece that you know there’s nothing There’s nothing. You can do um. To to live perfect enough. Well the fact that you’re just not going to live perfect is is more the way better way to say that um like and there’s nothing you can do to earn god’s love or god’s forgiveness like sin has separated you like it’s it’s a chasm but Jesus providing the way through his sacrifice and resurrection.

Andrew – My.

Josh – Um, has given you and now access to God and the forgiveness of your sins. We we get that piece right? The problem becomes for most Christians is that feels way too passive for us after the fact like it feels like I’m not doing enough. Um.

Andrew – Um, a.

Andrew – Who.

Josh – There’s still sin in my life and I have to deal with all this sin. Um, you know we’re taught in churches that like um, you have to you have to conquer this sin you have to be held accountable to all these things like we grab all these handful of verses from 15 different places.

Andrew – Right.

Josh – Um, to kind of portray this image of like it’s this behavior modification that has to happen and and you even see this in like the judgments in our own minds of like when we see people come in to to our communities and we’re like oh like they’re dealing with that or oh they’re whatever like they need to clean up their act or um, you’re having conversation with with some. You know, family friends about you know people serving in the church that were living together. Ah and that they shouldn’t be allowed to even be ushers and you’re just like you don’t like come on like you’ve got plenty of sins on your own like that’s the thing that you’re going to put sure. Don’t put them in leadership. You’re living in living in direct defiance of god’s will. But. Um, like it’s those kinds of things that like I don’t think it’s like it is directly said at times. But I think oftentimes. It’s just indirect behavior that we just learn that like oh no I have to put on this and then you get in this weird world where you’re putting on these masks and these images of who you think. Um, people want to see you as a good christian so and that becomes exhausting because it’s not the real you right? you’re you’re trying to create a facade of something that isn’t true and that gets exhausting. So I think we’re taught these things sure that it happens directly at times. But I think oftentimes it’s more indirectly that we get taught this idea that. Yes, you are a new creation. We believe that because scripture says that to be true, but at the same time like come on like you know, a lot of crap that you need to clean up and figure out like this is this is kind of crazy and that you’re still dealing with these same things and then you know we feel like we’re not enough. And we feel like we’re we’re actually a crappy Christian so we hide the fact they’re a crappy Christian and create create these facades of something that’s not true. Um, and we even do all the right behaviors because we know that this is what we’re supposed to do. We’re supposed to read the bible. We’re supposed to pray. We’re supposed to go to church. We’re supposed to give to the church. We’re supposed to serve.

Andrew – Bright.

Josh – And all of these things so we do all these things and then you know you get to these places where like it doesn’t feel like it’s enough or um, you feel like you musta did something wrong along this path. So now you’re being punished for these things and now you got to try even harder next time around for the next day. Um, like I used to have this this idea and it’s it’s old covenant thinking. But um, you know I’m trying to remember where it was now. But um, essentially your your mercies are renewed every morning and you know those verses Andrew I don’t know what there I thought my head which are probably yeah.

Andrew – Right? right? Yeah I don’t know his mercies are new every morning that yeah I don’t know exactly where that is. But yeah.

Josh – But I used to think I used to have this idea of like if you screwed up enough like just give up on the day like his mercies will be renewed tomorrow. We’ll just we’ll just start over like it’s not like I’ve screwed up today like I’m not going to be used by god all today because I’ve screwed up too many times I’ll just wait til tomorrow.

Andrew – I call it a day. Ah, that’s funny. That’s funny. Yeah, right right.

Andrew – And right.

Josh – But like you’re missing out on opportunity for God to use a broken vessel a broken you know person that yeah still has sin um that that needs to be you know needs to be dealt with but at the same time um is missing out on opportunities to be used by God because you’ve convinced yourself, you’re you’re broken for the day and you have to start over um tomorrow.

Andrew – Great.

Josh – Um, and you only have so many days. So let’s not waste any of them even if you do feel like you’ve screwed up too many times. Jesus is already forgiven. He’s taken care of have those conversations of why but you know move on move move forward. Don’t don’t let this keep messing you up. But yeah, what are your thoughts before.

Andrew – Right? right? yeah man um yeah I I I had thoughts like that I used to 1 rule in my mind when I was little was ah.

Josh – Keep going.

Andrew – You know the Golden rule do unto others as you would have them. Do do unto you Well I flipped that and if somebody was a jerk to me I felt total justification to be a jerk back to them because I’m like obviously they want me to do what they’re doing back to Them. You know, like as a. Ah, as a kid I remember explaining that to my Mom. She’s like rolling her eyes like no that is not is not how it goes at all. Um, you know like yeah says love your neighbor as yourself and they were a total turned to me so justifies me being interd back to them. Like no, That’s not how that works. Um, but I get it and that’s like you know when you grow up in the church you can find yourself being pretty religious and that’s kind of how I defined pink religious having rules like that where you’re ah. You’re looking for loopholes very actively at us saying I’m not going to take the heart of what’s said here and to take the exact words and do nothing more than that. But yeah man, it’s ah it’s harder to accept this idea of being a new creation. Especially. Especially in moments when I’m falling into things that are old in me and that are sinful in me. Um, that’s that’s a moment where I’m like you sure I’m a new new creation you know and is that is that real? Um, yeah, it’s something that. I Have to you know my my nature is not necessarily my nature but my bent is being like how can I be in control of this thing. How can I affect it with my action. Um, how can I make this choice on my own. You know my my natural. Bent is not to like say how can I rely on God to provide to to give discernment to give wisdom to to fill this void to fix this problem like my my natural is to jump towards like well what can I do. On my own. What decisions can I make on my own rather than like no I’m a new creation God Views me this way. Um I should go in front of God First I should trust that he has a plan and action. That’s gonna work out like I don’t know So So yeah, that’s how this strikes me is. I Guess similar to you is it. It takes work to it takes reminding myself for listening to the Holy spirit to remind me that I’m actually a new creation to believe it because I’m kind of quick to slip into that not being the case in my mind. So yeah.

Josh – Yeah, and. Yeah, and I I get how we get there right? like especially from you know, put yourself as a child growing up in your parents’ home like Behavior um is what’s taught right? like they’re trying to teach you how to behave the problem.

Andrew – Hey hey.

Andrew – Right? right.

Josh – Becomes is when we relate that same methodology to how God interacts with us like God’s not in the behavior game God’s in the character game and character is really hard to judge until it manifests itself so we don’t go down those roads as humans because it’s like I can’t put my hand on anything.

Andrew – Ah, right.

Josh – Right? Like I can’t say well his character’s like I don’t know what his character’s like until it manifests itself into behavior. But God’s not playing the behavior game like he doesn’t care your actions he cares about your character and his goal in this life and we talked about this sanctification process this process of making you more like him. Yes, there is that.

Andrew – Great.

Josh – There is a result of our character the behavior but but what God’s trying to change is our character and that’s the work that he’s doing when we’re having when we’re fostering relationship bejes in the conversations we’re having with him and the things that he’s bringing up and the things that he wants us to talk through whether they’re you know.

Andrew – Great right.

Josh – Thought patterns that we’ve had in the past or but you know things that we’ve done the experiences that we’ve had whatever it is ah that God’s talking to us in that season like he’s trying to get at character change. So he’s putting you in in in situations where you’re processing and thinking through these things to rewire.

Andrew – Great. Wow.

Josh – Some faulty thinking to change your character and then Behavior follows suit afterwards the problem that we get into and what we teach often is we teach the behavior piece like do this don’t do that live by this rules and then when your behavior doesn’t when your behavior outpaces your character.

Andrew – Yeah.

Josh – Things you’re going to implode at some point because you can’t keep up with that right? like it just it’s inevitable like this is why we see so much moral failure in the world today and in the Christian Church today is because yeah, you’ve you’ve created this behavior that doesn’t match your character and eventually yeah, it’s going to implode on itself because one you can’t keep it up.

Andrew – Oh yeah, who.

Andrew – Right? right.

Josh – 2 your pride’s gonna take over and think you deserve something you know, deserve things you don’t actually deserve or you know it’s just going to get so much of a burden and a weight on you that you’re going to eventually say f it I deserve this I’m out and you’re gonna give into whatever right? But when we when we when we’re changed by Jesus in the midst of our character like. Except in the fact, we’re new creations. We have new access to tools and power that we didn’t have before meaning we now have power over sin in our lives doesn’t mean we’re going to conquer all 50 sins that we deal with on a regular basis in that moment. Um, like there’s a maturity piece that’s going to have to happen where jesus continues to shape that character. Um, to get us to those places and it’s not a moment in time like it’s kind of overwhelming to think I have to deal with all 50 sins right now in this moment like if I’m looking at at the mirror and I’m like holy crap. There’s a lot of things on there that I probably still do on a regular basis. Um, you know and like the overwhelming thing of like I gotta deal with all this stuff. Like it becomes a lot less overwhelmed whenever when I recognize that no I’m a new creation I have a new position I’m a son of the most high jesus has saved my my saved me from my sin as that’s as that sacrifice needed but he’s also conquered death so I can have new life and have that new life starting now.

Andrew – Right? right.

Josh – Not just for my eternity and that new life is how I get to now interact with god as a forgiven you know person and start talking about the hard things about life. So Jesus can start reworking you know Rewiring and working things about me so I can have a new character and then eventually my behavior follows suit to my character. But I think too often us as christians we flip that and we we say things like no if you do these things you’ll eventually your character will change and this’s just not true like as much as we love to believe that our behavior changes our character and you know there’s plenty of secular and Christian.

Andrew – Right? right.

Josh – You know, thought leaders that that preach that it’s just not true. The science doesn’t act like doesn’t hold up. We see too much failure in this world for that to be true like let Jesus change your character which means comes back to you got a foster relationship with Jesus that’s got to be your sole primary responsibility in this life is foster relationship Jesus right? there with it.

Andrew – So right right.

Andrew – Yeah.

Josh – Um, is foster relationship with people like this is how we love god and love people we foster relationship and the character piece starts to change and our behavior will follow suit. But when we flip those things. Yeah, we don’t feel like new creations. We feel like there’s too many things we have to fix. We don’t sit in our you know position as sons and daughters of Christ.

Andrew – Um, yeah.

Josh – Um, like we we take on too much responsibility on ourselves to to clean up this mess when all reality Jesus never asked us to take on that responsibility. He asked us to be an active participant in that you know process as he takes on that responsibility. You know if you’re sure if you’re not if your behaviors are not changing.

Andrew – Great right.

Josh – Over you know a course of a year then yeah, there’s a character piece at play and I would argue you probably not walking with Jesus I would guess you probably struggled to remember where you had a real honest conversation with Jesus and that’s probably why you’re not seeing more fruits of the spirit in your life. You know today than you were a year ago it’s a fostering relationship issue.

Andrew – Here.

Andrew – Um, yeah, that’s fair, yeah.

Josh – Um, or you know maybe you are talking about Jesus but you’re not listening so you’re just doing the talking. It’s a lecture series and Jesus like do all you talk until you’re ready to listen and let me know I’m still here and probably has you know a smirk on his face because I assume god is as sarcastic as I am or he’s like one day you’ll figure it out.

Andrew – Um, yeah, right right.

Andrew – Yeah, oh man. Yeah I don’t know he definitely has a good sense of Humor. That’s for sure. Um, dude this Ah I think we should I think we should posit there. Um, only because we started a little bit late and but anyway. All that to say something that you said I know you reiterated it but I wanted to bring it up again cause it just really struck me as being like pretty awesome is that basically like when your behavior outpaces your character It always catches up at some point and man like.. There’s so much wisdom in that because we see the results of that a lot you know and and the better route is always like no just lean into God Lean your relationship with the lord. Let him be the the driving force in changing your character like start there and then over time your behavior just follows what’s already there you know it starts to look more and more like like he wants it to look so. Anyway, man, it’s ah that’s an awesome point that you just made and just wanted to call it out like so so Good. So Anyway, man Yeah, thanks for sharing that that wisdom. Thanks.

Josh – No, and if you’re sitting there like trying to wrap your head around these ideas I think there’s 3 statements that are worth digging into a Jesus if you don’t feel like they’re true. 1 is that you’re a beloved child or beloved son or daughter you want to word it that you’re holy meaning. You are now set apart and you are now forgiven like your your your’re cleansed your his scriptures as wide is snow and then the last one is that you’re fully forgiven like if if those hit you in wrong ways where you’re like yeah I’m I’m not that have that conversation with Jesus um, dig into that. Um, ask them hey why why do I not feel like I’m holy or why do I not feel like I’m fully forgiven. Why do I feel like you know you’re holding this against me or whatever, whatever it is like you can go through those things but have all those honest conversation with Jesus and I think there’s a lot of healing that’s that. That is had when we can get to those places and those statements are true when we say them and they’re not true because anything you’ve done like let’s just be very clear about that like you’re not holy or forgiven because of anything you’ve done but because of what Jesus did and gave you access to You’re not a beloved son or daughter because of anything you’ve done. Um, but the fact that that Jesus went to the cross to restore relationship. Um, you know through forgiveness of sins. Um like dig into those things have those conversations. It’s worth having it over and over again. I’m really digging into like am I do I really feel like a beloved son. Do I really feel like I’m holy do I really feel like i’m. Fully forgiven not just forgiven not just like oh yeah, Jesus forgave me but like the things that you’ve done let the weight hit you of what you’ve done and then realize Jesus is taken care of it like it’s it’s done. It’s forgiven. It’s taken care of. It’s washed from god’s mind like as far as the east is from the west. It’s done and taken care of. Live in that truth and then allow that place to be your identity so you can start doing the the work that Jesus is going to call you to um and lead you through as he starts to adjust and change your character. Um and mature you into the full creation of what god’s created you to be. And not just the beginning of this process itself that we find at salvation but keep keep moving down that road if you need to have a conversation with somebody about it have a conversation with something about it. Maybe you’re missing something and you’re just not hearing god on it then you know use use the christian community that’s around you. That’s what it’s there for to start being the voice box of god for you.

Andrew – Okay.

Josh – Um, until you can get to that place and that place of rewiring healing that you know god can you can hear god speaking to you already as he’s already doing so dig into those things. Are you do you feel like you are a beloved child. Do you feel like you are holy and do you feel like you are fully forgiven. And part of this goes back to our conversation last week which we talked about excuse me, we talked about our family or origin stories. Sometimes we don’t feel like we’re beloved because of our family origin stories some ah times we feel like an absolute failure and that god could never forgive me because I’m just you know I’m broken. Um. In the you know worst of ways because of the the lies that maybe your your family has has poured into you um your entire life especially during your formative years like it’s worth You’re going to dig into hard places to get to the root of a lot of those things and it’s going to be. Hard conversations with god that feel extremely exposing. But this is this is the christian life like this is what Jesus wants. This is what you know when when um, um, when when Jesus talks about the story or John talks about the story of you know people getting before you know judgment. Um, and so they look at all the great things we’ve done for you and and Jesus says but I never knew you away from me like I don’t know who you are this is what he’s talking about because we never chose to foss a relationship with Jesus. We played the behavior game and we thought that’s all god wanted from us. And all reality he wanted relationship and in the midst of that relationship. He wanted to see character change. Um that he was going to lead the process through as you as an actor participant. But it’s not all on you. This life should feel full of hope this life should feel full of excitement. This life should be an adventure. This life should be. Abundant not in you know, monetary or or physical gain but abundant in relationship and abundant in purpose and abundant and a meaningful way of doing this life. Um, but if it’s not feeling that way if it’s feeling a burden. It’s feeling exhausting. It’s feeling like it’s just too much. You can’t keep going on like this.

Andrew – Yeah.

Josh – It’s because you’re doing it wrong. Um, you’ve taken too much reins from Jesus. He never asked you to take you take it. You’ve taken on too much pressure from Jesus. He never asked you to carry and he just wants you to fos a relationship with Jesus and in the midst of that relationship walk with him and do what he says he’s going to take you to places you never thought you’d go. Your character’s going to change in ways that you never thought was possible. You’re going to love people in ways that in sacrificial ways that you never thought you had in yourself and you’re going to be 100 % fully in love with Jesus in a way that that nothing shakes you in this world takes time to get there. Doesn’t happen overnight I wish it did life would be so much easier if it did but it doesn’t it takes time. This is a journey. Don’t skip any steps along the journey and fake it because eventually you’re not going to be able to sustain it and it is going to fall apart. We. Love you guys. Thanks for listening. Ah Andrew I don’t remember if you’re still there. You told me you were leaving. I can see that you’re muted but I love your brother as always good to hear from you.

Andrew – Love you to my friend peace.

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