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Faulty Attributes, Pt 2
Episode No. 58

We often think as Christians, that it is in our job description to defend God. It isn’t. God is more than capable of defending Himself. The question then becomes, why do we feel the need to defend God? That is our topic for today.

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Resources

Verses – Hebrews 12.
Book – The Hope Study.

Transcript

Josh: Hello. Hello. Hello. We’re just two normal dudes trying to live this Jesus’ life. My name is Josh. 

Andrew: Hey, I’m Andrew. And we are this Jesus life podcast. Josh. We’re back. My friend. We are, how are you doing, 

Josh: dude? I couldn’t be doing better. Yeah, at least right now in this moment I couldn’t be doing better. So there’s that it can change from moment to moment, hour to hour.

Right. Right now this month I’m feeling pretty good. Probably. Cause we spent the last, you know, whatever time just catching up. Um, but yeah, I can’t, uh, I can’t complain. 

Andrew: Yeah, man, dude, I got to get some Starbucks egg bites because um, I don’t think I’ve eaten those in really long time and seeing how happy you are right now after having some breakfast, you that’s the best commercial you could get, you know, so

go get some. 

Josh: Yeah, sure. I’ll do that. And we’re back. Um, just kidding. Uh, yeah, the first I remember having the egg bites the first time and I almost threw up really just the extra, the idea just, just sounded gross and I couldn’t do it. And then it probably didn’t try them again for a solid two, three years, and then got on this kick again where you’re like, just trying to cut carbs out of your diet in the nicest way possible.

And not just like all of them, because look, to be honest, carbs are the best they are the best why we eat. So I was like, well, I’ll cut. I’ll just do the eggs. And that’s, I just usually do omelets at home. But, um, now that I want it Starbucks this morning, which let’s be honest, I want Starbucks most mornings.

Right. It’s become an egg bites thing. 

Andrew: Yeah, that’s fair. Well, my breakfast was simply two granola bars. It’s so funny, man. I get up. I most, most mornings I get up, uh, first cause Catherine usually wakes up before her sister. Um, and I usually wind up hopping up with her, getting her breakfast. And the last recently her younger sister, Charlotte, we started giving her, um, breakfast.

We started giving her people food actually. So 

Josh: like giving her any breakfast before. 

Andrew: Well, she was, yeah, she was fat. No, she was no, uh, she just was only nursing, but she just hit six months. So she’s like old enough and can sit up well enough and all that stuff. So, anyway, dude, so we, uh, She’s been needing food.

So like, I’ll get up and I’ll make a bunch of breakfast, you know, for, for the girls. And sometimes for Janet, I don’t get hungry till like 10, 10, 30 or 11. So I just usually don’t eat anything. So like you saw me pound two granola bars before we started, because I’m like, I’m hungry now, but, uh, but yeah, man, it’s fun watching.

Like little ones, uh, love food. Like Katherine’s Catherine this morning wanted peanut butter and jelly toast with a cheesecakes at the, uh, and, and some other like, and macaroni Mac and trees, uh, macaroni with broccoli. And cause you guys are like full 

Josh: service kitchen. No, no, no, no. 

Andrew: I know I did peanut butter toast and some, uh, some, uh, Mellon for her.

But no, I didn’t do that, but that’s what she wanted. I’m like, this is such a crazy, like, that’s such a crazy 

Josh: bro. You’re not, no, there’s certain foods we’re only allowed to eat in the morning. Yeah. The fruits you have to wait because McDonald’s is start selling hamburgers until 10:00 AM or whatever it is.

10 30 11. What exactly. 

Andrew: And those are the moments where they want to make up rules as a parent where you’re like, yeah, yeah. If Chipola catches us serving breakfast case, They won’t ever sell food to us again, you know, like stuff like that. And I’m not going to lie. I do make up rules like that. Like the entire week at the beach, even at the beach house, Catherine was terrified that if she broke the rules at the beach, the lifeguards would come and get her.

Uh, it started as like, just explaining, we started by just explaining what like parents do. If you’re like having trouble swimming in the ocean. And then we realized she was like, I don’t want that to happen to me. And like, she was being uttered with something and we’re like, Hey, you gotta be careful, no throwing snacks or the lifeguards come over here.

And she’s like, oh, 

Josh: like, then you drop it on her when she’s being really bad that her mom is actually a lifeguard ironic 

Andrew: she’s way less intimidating to her than a stranger. Who’s a lifeguard. So yeah, man. The things you 

Josh: do in your wife, pull out her old lifeguard uniform and her, 

Andrew: yeah, dude, that would be awesome.

That’d be awesome. We’ll save that for when things really get bad. And we got to really bring in a lifeguard, throw a wig. I remember, I remember 

Josh: when Janet was that she used to be a lifeguard and yeah, like the picture I had in my head, you’re like, oh yeah, 100%. I can see Jane as a lifeguard. That that’s her personality.

So, well, this is a rule follower, making sure of what else is following the rules, 

Andrew: dude, you gotta of gotta, you know, we can’t all be having a good time all the time and you mess up, you mess up around the beach or at the beach house. And uh, you’re going to have a gaggle of lifeguards coming in and dragging you out of there.

Josh: Be careful as lifeguards. Uh, their authority is pretty intense. 

Andrew: We jump in, we. Let me transition with the story of Facebook being total dumpster fire. Um, so I, we are talking about kind of faulty attributes of God. This is part two. Um, as you know, if you were listening last week, we, uh, we put up part one and we made it through a couple of them.

Um, but we have a few to go. And one of them, 

Josh: I’m excited to hear how you connect these, how you connect us to Facebook, to being a dumpster fire. I’m sitting here in anticipation. 

Andrew: Yeah. As you should be. Um, so, uh, the, the faulty assumption of it’s your job, it is your job to defend God. It is your job to defend as a Christian is one that we’re going to talk about.

And I was thinking about this because last night, Uh, my wife went to bed really early and I’m like, oh, I’ll just climb in bed. And I was hanging out and like, you know, had like an hour to kill. Cause I wasn’t tired yet. So I was listening to a podcast and like, you know, I don’t get on Facebook much. Oh, I’ll check that out.

And uh, hopped on there. And man, Facebook is a dumpster fire man. There’s occasionally there’s occasionally just like, you know, like there’s good updates and like, Hey, like awesome. You had a kid or like you’re doing this cool trip or whatever. There’s some of that. Yeah. But I think that like 70% of my news feed on Facebook is just like either Christians being like here’s some Bible verses about, uh, why you absolutely have to get vaccinated.

And then there’s some other ones, like here’s some Bible verses about why you’re evil and here’s some other stuff about politics. And by the way, let me bring this in, dude. It is just constant. And I don’t believe either of those things I’m sitting there like, Hey, I’m trying to think for myself for here.

Um, so as tempting as it is to engage in that type of stuff, You’re obviously just throwing mud at one another and what somebody might put out there as like a strong defense of God in their opinion, or their mindset might actually just be them wanting to be like, I want to bash somebody’s opinion and I want to do it out there as my strongly held belief.

And, uh, and just see what happens, you know, like that. I just feel like that’s the, that’s the thing is like, it’s just, it’s a platform where you can just like throw mud at one another from slight, uh, distance and say things that are maybe more harsh than you would if you’re talking or sitting across the table.

But yeah, man, I, uh, I like Facebook for marketplace, but the rest seems to be a dump. 

Josh: Well, and it’s even worse if you jump on the Twitters. Um, I don’t even have a tablet where I deleted that. Not that I was on Twitter a lot, but, um, It’s this idea that I don’t know, people, they think their opinion matters.

Uh, and then there’s these, this Christian segment of Facebook that they think their opinion matters, but then they also use God as their like Trump card, even though they don’t understand the theology behind what they’re trying to say. Uh, they’re just trying to make a point. That’s really just their opinion with, you know, versus that they quickly Googled and found that somewhere relate to what they’re talking about.

At least it sounds like it so they can try to defend that position. Um, yeah, the world would be a much better place if we just all realized nobody cares what your opinion is. Yeah. Like 

Andrew: people care what your opinions are or when you’re actually in relationship with them and say, Hey, like Josh, what do you think about that?

And like, do you think I’m making the right choices? Do you think I should know. 

Josh: There’s two guys that have a podcast and we figured it out, but we’re just saying,

Andrew: well, your opinion, when you’re coming from a place of. Half the people that see, this are total idiots. In my perspective, that’s when it doesn’t matter, it will not. That’s my take. 

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. Then it gets out of control where the, you know, the comment thread goes nuts and you’re like, why did you engage in the first place?

Like, let Karen be caring. Um, this is what happens when you near the crazies out of the, the saying like they’re going to control everything. So I’m definitely on Facebook. It’s funny. I got on Facebook a couple weeks ago. Um, what was I looking for? I don’t know. I was looking for something and, uh, uh, I had like tons and tons of friend requests and you like feel kind of obligated to like accept them, but then you’re like, no, I’m not on Facebook.

I’m not accepting. Yeah, I think I’m like, oh gosh, I’m on Facebook again. 

Andrew: Just be inviting them to look at our old stuff. You know, like, 

Josh: yeah. I apparently my Instagram and it goes to Facebook, which I didn’t realize was turned on. I think mine does. I was like, yeah, I just post to Instagram. And they’re like, oh no.

I said, I’m not on Facebook anymore. And they’re like, are you sure? I just saw posts from you. And I was like, what, what are you talking about? It’s an Instagram posts, tricky Instagram at Facebook. So to give my stuff at some point, let’s be honest. We’re all going to get off every platform because we just realized the unhealth of it all.

Uh, one thing I have learned though, that’s not really related to what we’re talking about. Uh, but you get this weird sense when you’re on Facebook all the time, and people are posting about their lives, that you’re actually close to a bunch of people. Um, And in all reality, you’re not because the second get off Facebook, you don’t see any updates on their lives and kind of forget about those people.

Um, it just, I don’t know, for me, it makes me to be a lot more intentional about the relationships that do matter to me and to engage in them and then realize the relationships that actually don’t matter to me. I thought they did because I saw updates from people all the time. But in all reality, I’ve no desire to reach out to any of them and continue a relationship, um, which is, you know, all relationships have a season.

So it’s, it’s okay for things to die. Um, Then they got relationships last, when 

Andrew: you accept, sorry, if you hear a little bit of upset in the background, but when you, you know, when you have 25th preinjury quests and just accept them all, it’s like, you know, then that’s just an unreasonable number, let alone 500 or a thousand people or whatever.

Like you can only keep up with so many people. Um, and you can only have your opinion matter to people who you’re actually invested in, you know, uh, Like that’s when you’re supposed to say like, Josh, am I making the right choice? Like, is this good? Is this honoring to God that those types of questions, but they happen inside of actual relationship and they definitely don’t happen in the comment section.

You know, like 

Josh: that’s, that’s not the place. I think it, I think it feeds something inside of us. I mean, it’s some kind of like a euphoria or something where, um, when you have those conversations, it feels like relationship. Um, but it’s an empty relationship. It’s the same thing we talk about when we talk about relationship with Jesus, right?

You can do all the right things in terms of being a good Christian. Um, and it can feel like you’re connected, but the second something bad happens or turmoil shows up and everything starts to crumble. You realize there’s no actual foundation there. I think it would be it’s like relationships, relationships.

So it’d be the same principles that play it. Well, You know, as well of, you know, we feel like we’re close. We feel like you have real relationship where we’re having conversation with people. Um, but in all reality, it’s a pretty empty relationship, you know, I don’t see you face to face. We just see posts and the other like weird part of it all is like, um, there’s this like, uh, W when people are posting on Facebook, I would assume like they have a demographic or like a audience in mind of what they’re posting about.

Right. So like maybe they look at Facebook and they just think of all their friends and family as they’re posting, like you don’t even come into their mind. Um, and you know, you’re reading something, you’re like, oh, we’re growing in relationship. And it was never intended for you in the first place. Um, so there’s that piece of it too.

Or, you know, you’re, you’re a single woman trying to find a man and all your poster or a efficient, and you’re just out there get some interactions. And sorry, just to me, when I read it, I watched a video on that earlier this week, you know what? That’s probably come into it too. They post things to Instagram because they want one individual to see it and respond a hundred percent, which is just, yeah.

Which sounds exhausting. My friends, if that’s you out there, stop, stop doing that. Quit that dude. Get on the dating apps instead of just kidding. 

Andrew: Yeah, 

Josh: where does, 

Andrew: I dunno, it works for some people just be very selective about which data gap you’re using. If you’re going to 

Josh: do that, why I jumped on the Tinder and I was swiping right on everyone.

And the only people I either Tinder hates me and, you know, only ugly people swipe back. I don’t know. I was very disappointed. Never get on that up again. I want 

Andrew: my money back. Well, I’m you should, uh, you should be,

Josh: I don’t know. There was a lot of, like, people just wanted pictures of my private parts. And I was like, oh, cheater that, but I just thought maybe you should do this. 

Andrew: Try farmers only.com 

Josh: like on the what’s the J J J date. I was on the J date for awhile. And then I realized, oh, this is like for practicing Jews.

And I was like, I’m not, not that thing, dude. Where does it come from? 

Andrew: You just said it was in your head here. This thing come from where people believe it’s my job to defend, uh, God or Christianity or my church or to, let’s not even say a specific thing. It’s my job to defend because I’m a follower of Christ, you know, like it’s my job to constantly defend.

Where does that even come from? Because it seems to be normal often. 

Josh: I don’t, I think come from a couple of places. I think one place is pride, um, that we have this thing of like we’re 100% right. All the time. So we have to defend our position to be right. Um, I think it also comes from insecurity, um, in the sense that like, we’re just, maybe it’s maybe it’s disbelief that we, that we have in some area of our life and with God and his character, um, that we just don’t fully believe.

So we feel the need to constantly defended or pack ideas into that, you know, lane, um, to make ourselves feel better. Um, I, yeah, I think you come from a lot of different places, but there is this tendency in Christianity in general that we like to, we just like to be right. Um, and it probably comes to some extent of the fact that we, we do believe we are right.

That Jesus is the only. Um, to God. Um, and I would argue that is true. True. Um, not just because of scripture saying it’s true. Uh, but it does. Uh, but also because it’s Christian history that it’s true. And more than that, it’s my experience. That it’s true. Um, so those are the three things that are gonna be really hard to convince you otherwise.

But, uh, I think there’s that piece of it too, because we have the truth. I think we feel this need to correct people when they don’t have the truth. And I think this is why like the, and I’ll use this term in a, not using it in a political sense, just in a generality of, of thought, but there’s like this in the liberal line of the world, liberal worldview of things.

Um, I think that’s why. It’s so strong, the idea that let your truth be your truth, uh, lives in that vein. Um, because it’s just an, a direct, uh, uh, front to, to the conservative viewpoints, which is like, there is one single truth, and then we hold onto that truth. Um, but we’re very inflexible on the aspects of that truth that are still in the gray.

Like we hold onto them as, um, but you see this too, like it’s like since the Protestant reformation, so in the process and movement separated from the Catholicism, um, through Luther, like the church has split like 3,800 times or something like that. So I’m the number off the top. My head was well over well, over 3000.

Wow. And I think comes out of that too, of like, we just feel this need that we’re 100% of that. We’re not okay with this. The gray areas of theology. So we had to put our lines in the sand and demand people to be with us, probably because of her insecurity, I would assume. Um, and it’s really hard for us to disagree with people.

Yeah. Like with being in a relationship where we disagree, 

Andrew: maybe to add to that, like, there’s this, you know, a lot of people will use a disclaimer when they share something on a social media site of, I don’t agree with 100% of what whoever says, you know, whoever’s thing or thought they’re sharing, but I agree with this one, you know, or, but this is insightful or whatever people say.

Um, but like, do you ever have to agree with 100% of what anybody says? Like, um, every church I’ve been a part of, even the one I’m a part of now, I’m like, I don’t actively disagree with every small pieces of things that the church considers to be theology, but I’m not in 100% alignment with all of it. Um, I’m close and I’m in alignment on all the major stuff.

And by major stuff, I mean like, who is Jesus? What is the gospel? Um, do I believe that that this church is doing the very best they can to live out, um, you know, loving life, the Lord, their God, with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength and loving their neighbors as themselves. I believe they’re trying to live those things out.

Yeah. Yeah. But like you go into like the minutia of, you know, what, uh, what happens once you swallow communion? Does it become blood and wine in your belly or does it not like there there’s things like that belief that I’m like, I just, I just can’t really, uh, Worry about that. Like, I don’t feel the need to believe 100% perfectly of every small stance, I guess.

Um, but maybe, maybe it’s common area. It seems like it might be common that a lot of people feel that way of like, I gotta be in 100% in alignment or 100% against it. And I got to tell everybody if I’m against it. So I don’t know. 

Josh: Yeah. Well, the other thing, like the church used to be really good at this dichotomy.

I think that’s the right word here. If not, um, don’t correct me and just let me think I’m smart. Um, but like up until, um, so we had the, the, uh, the Apostle’s creed that was written from, um, well, at least the first gathering of, of its, uh, re rendition came from, you know, all the dips. Factions of Christianity at the time.

So Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic for what existed at that moment. Um, and them coming together and agreeing to disagree on a majority of theology, but holding true to these single principles to hold true to this is, and I think it’s good. It would be good for the church to get back to that mentality of, yeah, we can agree to disagree on things that don’t matter as much as you know, this is salvation.

This is the gospel and for the gospel would be the gospel. These other attributes have to be true, meaning God is God. Jesus was God, you know, the holy spirit is the mediator between us. Um, to get to the gospel of Jesus was who he said he was, he said he was going to do. Um, and you know, we find salvation through Christ alone.

So as long as we can agree on those things, everything else becomes debatable. So women in leadership, do you accept or not accepted? I think it’s a debatable topic as I’ve dug into that topic recently. Like I think both positions are weak. Like what position you take? Um, I think there’s a lot 

Andrew: of it’s like, is it, is it only local or only global, you know, or is it a blend of both?

Like, I don’t know. Is that something you should die on the hill of? I don’t think so. You know? 

Josh: Yeah. That doesn’t leave him. I would argue baptism as well. Like it’s not a, it’s not a salvation issue. Um, so how it’s done, I think could be debatable now. Sure. I have a view on how it should be done. Um, and I would argue with Jesus’ view, so I’m right.

Just kidding, but like, Can I be 

Andrew: different. Lisa devil, every baptism, right? You release, it does feel like we want it to be liked or 

Josh: we’ve, we’ve installed like the God voice. So when someone is baptized, there’s a moment of like, this is my son. This is your daughter 

Andrew: pro tip. If you ever need to save budget on your baptism doves, uh, throw a little elastic around one of their, um, one of their legs and just, you know, tie it to a post.

You let that bird fly, reel it back in, let it fly, reel it back in, you know, good for three, four or five baptisms before it. 

Josh: Yeah, but you were then responsible for like feeding it in between baptisms. That seems like a lot more work. I said, let it go and hope for the best. I would assume Amazon has doves.

You just get on the bike

Andrew: probably. Oh man. I’m just kidding by the way, if you’re listening and you’re like, that’s a great idea. I wouldn’t try that. 

Josh: Don’t try that. If you’re listening and you’re thinking to yourself, that’s a great idea. We have so many. Yeah. 

Andrew: Josh and I have failed.

Josh: Yeah. Is wrong with you. Use your brain folks. Well, I think that’s where the scary part too. Like, even though we’re joking about it, like people using their brain scares people, because what happens if they come up with a defense or an idea that I can’t defend myself? Um, yeah. So going back to like circling all the way back around to this, this lie that we believe that it’s our job to defend a God.

Yeah. Like, I think that probably plays a big part in it as well is we were scared or not going to be able to defend the position that we’ve chosen to take, probably because it’s not a position that we did the work on. And we did the work to take some position. Somebody taught me at some point in, I just believed it to be true.

Um, and now people start to poke at those things. And your foundation of your faith starts to crumble because you put your faith on so many things that youth you’ve come to realize isn’t defendable. And I would argue there’s, there’s very few things about my faith that I wouldn’t be open to. Uh, exposed, like talking about even, not even having an answer to except for salvation.

Right? So like the gospel itself is the one thing that’s going to hold true. And it’s the foundation of Christianity, right? The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the foundation of Christianity, not scripture. And I know that’s hard to hear and for a lot of us, we’re like, what do you mean it’s not scripture?

Um, it’s, it’s not, the Bible is important. The Bible plays a role in our faith. It is the recorded words of God. Um, so, you know, thankfully we have them, but the reality is of the Bible did not exist. Christianity would continue to flourish and because we’re not built on scripture, we’re built on the recorded or we’re built on, you know, the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

And that’s the thing that changed every. Um, so anything outside of that? Yeah. Uh, I can not know about it and I’m fine with that. Yeah, you could, we could dig into, let me prove how creation was actually thousands of years and not okay. Um, I think you’re wrong. I think I have some proof to prove that you’re wrong, but, uh, if I didn’t and I didn’t have the knowledge in those areas and you came out with me with all your, you know, um, fake science, uh, I’m using big words or I’m just like, I don’t know.

I’m so confused. And now you’re like, well, everything must be wrong because creation was wrong. If that piece of the Bible’s wrong at all pieces of the Bible are wrong. Right. And that’s just, that’s just crazy talk. Yeah. Now I would argue everything in scripture is true. Um, how it happened and how it’s recorded.

It is true. Uh, but it’s not foundational to my faith. That it’s true. Um, I think it’s all defendable. I think, you know, using creation. You know, seven days of creation, it’s a defendable scientifically, um, in some areas and there’s areas we can’t defend because we just don’t know. But what you’ll learn really quickly about the opposite view, um, in the evolution of camp is, you know, though they say things as fact, oh, out of their belief is still just belief.

Um, it’s, it’s not, it’s not factual. Like, like we, like, they like that side likes to present it. Um, so it’s that piece of like, even if I didn’t know enough about creation and about the science behind it, um, then, you know, even in those moments, um, I could still stand firm in my faith because my faith is found in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, not, um, whether or not I have the ability in that moment to defend.

So going back to your job, it’s not your job to defend, and that’s why it’s a faulty view. 

Andrew: It isn’t your job to defend. And just to add to what you just said, I mean, What is your view of God? You know, do you actually believe that that God, um, is, is the one who you were talking about creation, so created all life, created all, all the material.

All matter we see was that God, or was it a spark of, of happenstance chance that somehow one thing became two things become, became everything, you know, like, and I’m not saying that to belittle people who have that view more, I’m just saying like, who is God is he actually is got the one actually in control of all things, actually, uh, over all things, actually all powerful, all knowing all, present, everything, you know, is that God, or is, uh, is God in, in maybe a corner or does God have limits that you somehow don’t have, or you and I don’t have.

Is God big or is he small? Like, is he, is he close in relationship or is he far away? Because when you start to think about those questions, it’s like all of them moments, all the things where you’re like, it’s my job to defend God. Um, that actually might mean that you’re, you’re thinking of God as, as being a lot smaller than he really is, or a lot weaker than he really is, or a lot less present than he actually is.

Um, Man I’ve, I’ve told you this once or twice, but my almost three-year-old has asked me the question a bunch of times, where is God? You know? Um, because we pray, we talk about God, we read the Bible, her Bible stories, by the way, kids, Bible stories are, are the best. Um, if you haven’t read the Bible in a long time, just reading the children’s Bible, they’re great.

They get, they get at the core in a whole lot less words. And, uh, they might represent kinda how people initially pass down the oral traditions of the Bible. Uh, more clearly anyway, but that’s neither here nor there. Um, anyway, she’ll be like, Hey, where is God? And I’m like, everywhere. He’s here right now.

She’s like, no, I can’t see him. Where is he? And I’m like, well, he’s in this thing. He’s in that attribute. He’s in the way we think and pray and speak and hear, and like, God is present. He doesn’t, you can’t see him like you. And I see one another right now. He’s present, you know, and if I didn’t have that belief, um, then I might, might come back with an answer of like, he’s sitting on a throne in heaven somewhere that we can’t see, but maybe one day we will, you know, and, and when you frame it up that way, then you and I have different responsibilities or, or maybe he doesn’t even care what we do.

I don’t know. So, um, your conception of God, your beliefs about who he is, what he does, where he is, how he functions all of that, like it makes a, has a massive difference on whether or not you believe it’s your job to defend God. Um, Last thing, you and I are Ben. We’re a lot weaker, smaller than God. The creation creation you and I, uh, is not the creator.

We can’t be the creator. I can go and make something out of. The wood can’t ever do that, you know, and in that same, I could go and make a really bad pot with clay because I’m not good at doing stuff with clay, but the clay could never make a pot of itself. You know, it’s simple analogy, but, but it’s true and it’s true to us and maybe we don’t want to.

Think about it that way, because we don’t like being humble and we like thinking, Hey, I have the spark of divinity from God, this mark in my character and in my very being that he imbued in us. Um, so that means I am God. It’s like, whoa, no, you’re the created, I’m the created by God. We are not God. There’s a world of difference in between.

So, um, yeah. Yeah. It’s not your job to defend. It’s not my job to defend it and I’m not perfect at this, by the way, Josh and I are both, uh, pretty argumentative people when we believe something is wrong. Um, we both, uh, kinda enjoy that aspect of life maybe to a fault. And, uh, Even with that being said 

Josh: political party, because we thought it’d be fun to target you, but we just felt like if we had a political podcast energies as podcasts, it’s sending the wrong message out there, 

Andrew: wrong message.

And we like to be employed places and having political podcasts to full-time employer is a bad idea. 

Josh: Yeah, 

Andrew: definitely. Anyway. Yeah. 

Josh: One day podcasts we’ll see maybe fun. Well, and it’s so important to just write along the lines or interesting. It’s so important that we, we fish out the bad or faulty views or faulty attributes that we’re attributing.

You’ve got to God, because it creates so much havoc in our lives and have in and how we interact with people and how we interact with God or our expectations of God. Um, right. Like. W I, I was I’m in a group and we, we met last night and we, we started this conversation around like, what happens, um, when, what happens when your life isn’t turning out the way that you thought it would, right?

And you start to go to this weird worlds, weird spiral, and the spiral ends up being, um, I want this to happen this way. It’s not happening this way. It’s actually happening the opposite of this way. And this is hurtful. Um, God is in control. God could step in, but he’s not stepping in. Um, so God must hate me.

Right? I’m like that weird spiral that we find ourselves in. Um, it’s the, you know, in the theological world, we call it the problem of evil and why does it, why can a good God allow evil to exist in this world? And all religions, try to explain it. Uh, Muslims Buddhists. I’ll try to explain the problem of evil.

Um, most, I would say. Are lacking, um, in, in answering that question, um, why is there evil in the world? Um, I think Christianity gets to the closest to answering the question, but yet, you know, as Andrew said, we’re not God, and I think there’s more to this, so there’s still some gray area in it, but, um, like evil exists in the world because sin still exists.

Um, I’m not getting what I want, even though yes, God is sovereign and God could intervene. But the reality is God doesn’t intervene. Um, because he’s still allows choice. He’s still allows humanity to make a choice, to choose, to follow him or not follow him, um, or choose to sin against man or not sin against man.

Um, and, and cause harm or sin is destructive and our lives are going to be destructive. If we choose to participate in sin and our lives are going to be destruct, you know, destructive in ways when other people choose to participate in sin against me. Um, so since still existence, since, since still rules the world, like that’s the reality of it.

And it’s going to rule the world until Jesus returns, um, because choice still exists. So you live in that dichotomy and like now there’s this piece of like, uh, Well, if, since the words were bad, things are gonna happen to you actually. Um, Jesus says that, you know, because you follow me, the world is going to hate you and bad things are going to happen to you.

Right? So there’s that reality that plays into this too. And I think we, we get into this weird place of applying, man. I’m going all over the place now. Um, let me bring in some other pieces. Cause then it comes into the conversation, old covenant, 

Andrew: Jesus sparked one. Can I just share one practical thing? Uh, of, of like, okay.

And then we’ll go back to old covenant because I’m sure the train you’re going down the trail is going to be a good one, but say it’s your job to defend. Let me name a few issues that, uh, people might have defended or thought about defending or thought about, uh, whatever, uh, politics, presidential politics, Donald Trump, Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, uh, Q Anon, uh, News sources, um, gay marriage, uh, abortion, all of these things are like, you know, they talk about wedge issues in, in politics, but let’s be real, they’re wedge issues in life and in culture, um, all of them just 

Josh: as you were saying, my heartbeat increasing.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. Cause you’re like, where are you going? But let’s just say if, if any of those, if one of those is any other similar things just makes your heart be race and makes you say, I need to tell everybody they’re wrong or everybody, this is what I think. Or I need to push this so hard in every platform I can, I would encourage you to just.

Pause, this podcast, take a practical step of saying, God, I really care about blah-blah-blah whatever the issue is. I really care about this view of that. And I really feel like I need to go out and defend it or bring others to my side or whatever, like have that talk with God real clear. And you can, you can even say it as passionately or more than you would say on Facebook or Twitter or anywhere else have that talk and then be like, God, what, where does that come from in me?

Why do I care so much about that? And take some time and listen and see what he shows you. Like, why do you care so much about any issue and I just listed or that other people argue about why do you care so much about that? Ask God to reveal that to you. Then once he does then say like, okay, well, like what do you want me to do about it?

How can I honor you with, with my stance in this? How can I. Do something to live my life differently to affect this, or how can I witness to people in a real deep sense out of relationship about this, or, you know, like I believe our God is big enough that, that he can take whatever stance you’re passionate about.

And if you’re humble about it and, and gracious about it and open to following God with it, that he can turn that energy and use it for positive, uh, for his kingdom that he can use it to, to work in you and through you. Um, and that might not look like, uh, it might not come out on the other end looking like, great.

I just need to blast everybody on Facebook who has a different opinion than me. And when I say might not, I mean, I think it definitely wouldn’t actually. Um, but. Humbly go before God with the things that make your heartbeat extra fast and say like, God, where’s this coming from a knee because it’s probably ultimately from a place of good that God put in you the way he constructed you.

Um, but he could turn that energy and use it for his purposes and his plan and his path and your life. But, but if you’re unwilling to take that step and you just stop on the, I’m going to hit somebody else over the head with this, I don’t think that’s going to be positive. I don’t think that’s going to go anywhere.

Good. So get practical, take a minute. And the things that you want to defend about God or the stances you want to defend, how about we just get better at submitting those to God and taking some time to dwell there and hear what he might do through us. Uh, in us and then maybe through us with that passion, that was my, how to get practical about this.

So any thoughts on that or straight into old covenant? Um,

Josh: well, well now my little cabinet thing doesn’t really fit, but I’ll say it’s helpful. Uh, under the old covenant, there was a principle of blessings and cursings right with, with the Israelites, when they were walking with God, they were blessed when they were walking away from God, they were cursed, um, and oftentimes overcome by another country, uh, or another people group.

Um, and that was, that was true. Um, under the new covenant, because forgiveness has been entered into the picture. Her grace has been entered into the picture on a much grander scale. And then under the old covenant blessing and cursing does not exist, can’t find it anywhere. Um, and I would argue the opposite of even if you’re walking with Jesus, um, there’s a better chance that you’re going to experience what we quote unquote called cursing, uh, in our lives.

And Jesus was very clear about that this world will hate you because of your mind. Um, so get used to it. Um, but I think oftentimes when we look at the circumstances of our lives, they’re going not how we want them to. We think that we’re outside of God’s will, for some reason. Um, now there’s consequences to our sin, right?

Consequences in the sense that sin is destructive practice and is still going to be destructive. Um, it’s going to destroy a relationship, um, and all those types of things. Yes, there’s still consequences from, it’s not a cursing, it’s just the consequences to your behavior. Um, not that God is intervening or introducing new consequences to teach you a lesson.

They’re just the natural consequences that are going to happen because of sin. Um, and from a blessing standpoint of good things happening to you, Jesus is clear that it does he not even bless those that don’t follow him. The answer is true. Like, yes he does. Um, so like who are we to say that because you’re being blessed that you’re in line with God.

Um, so we can’t use, I say all that to say this, you can’t use those assigns on whether or not you’re in line with Jesus or out of line with Jesus circumstance of life or circumstance of life in a lot of ways. They’re not connected to whether or not your walls. With GS, at least they’re not connected in the way that we think they would be.

Um, so you have to be really careful with yourself in how you run down those roads, um, and end up in those places where you’re like, well, God must not be in the midst of this, or God’s not for me. Or God is 100% for me because these things are happening. And I asked him to do this and he’s doing it. So God God’s with me.

Um, so I could be an ass because I’m right. Um, you know, circling back to the conversation at hand, right? There’s that piece of really it’s like, yeah, it isn’t that I would argue. The only thing that we really can hold on to on whether or not we’re walking with Jesus in relationship with Jesus is do you see more fruit of the spirit in your life than you did before the fruit of spirits to find it in Galatians?

Um, you know, peace, patience, kindness, selfish, selflessness. So discipline, I’m making things up now. Love it. 

Andrew: Patience, kindness. Goodness, gentleness, faithfulness. Yeah. 

Josh: Oh, look at that. Look at that. Barb. You hear that? Barb, your son remembered it 

Andrew: walking around the kitchen, man. How could I forget? Right. Yeah.

That’s the evidence, right? Like, are you growing in these 

Josh: things? Yeah. Yeah. That’s the only, that’s really the only evidence. Yeah. You’re gonna really be able to hold on to, from a, from a factual, I guess, standpoint. Um, at least from something to hold on to. I think that’s helpful, but I think so often, um, that we as Christians think that we just suck as Christians, I would argue probably that’s the majority viewpoint.

Um, and because of that, um, we feel this need to defend our position, um, because there’s. This underlying, I’m just horrible. So I gotta do something or I’m horrible. So I have to hide that something and I have to defend things. Um, and you just get in weird, weird, weird, weird, weird places, um, really fast. Um, so boil this down.

It’s your job to defend God? No, God is more than capable of defending himself like he does. Um, and the other part of is like, how are you going to defend him argue? And how many times has an argument ended up in a good place where you convince that other person, uh, of your viewpoint? Right. Like 0.0, zero, zero 3%.

Um, the death rate of, of COVID, um, sorry. That was political. All of a sudden 16 for it to be, um, why it should, it should even be, come on, COVID pull 

Andrew: it off. Yeah. Let’s just quit making a stand on everything. It should just be a stat. It’s like, come on. Like, why do we, we just divide men. Let me, I know I’m jumping in on your thought and it’s not about group stats.

I just think, like, I think that when we, as Christians jump into defense or offense, if we’re being real, um, it’s we might think of it as we’re defending something about God or we’re defending a stance or whatever. Most of the time, it’s just like, we’re swinging haymakers at other people in colon defense.

You know, we’re like, let me hit you before you can hit me or let me make sure this one hurts. So you won’t hit me next time. And it’s like, God doesn’t need that. And, and more than that, I think that. The enemy of God, Satan, the enemy of us, Satan. I think he smiles when we do that, I think he’s like, wow, I’m doing a great job.

Um, I’m dividing these people. I’m getting them to fight and fight and getting them to say they represent God, but actually, you know, and their social media presence is, or by the people that know them best, they actually are just known for what they’re against and not what they’re for. You know, I’m, I’m breaking down unity.

Um, and I think that’s his goal is like, how can I make people feel really prideful? Like I feel like I felt when I rebelled against God talking that I is like Satan point of view, how can I make them feel really prideful and how can a disunified them as much as possible? Because if I can do those things, they’re probably not going to be very focused on the kingdom of God.

Probably not going to be very focused on like real life change relationship with Jesus. Like you’ve been talking about Josh. Those are a couple of the tools in his tool belt that man, they gotta be, I I’d say some of the top, most pervasive things that are in our culture in the U S is like constant bickering and infighting and disunity.

Like you said, the church having like 3,800 divisions since the reformation, it’s like that doesn’t speak of unity. Like how could we, how could we live differently? And, and more honestly, um, in a little bit of humility with one another to where we can say, do we agree on the gospel? Like we agree on that.

Okay. We can talk about, we can figure out our differences on other things, but let’s focus on that. And let’s focus in, focus on how we can live this out. And bring others into it. Cause thing, the more you do that, the less over time, you actually care about all the other small things that you are, or maybe just the smaller, those other things become of like the differences, the less energy you actually care to put towards those.

If you’re focused on living out your faith in a real way, uh, in, in every facet of your life. So I don’t know. I know that’s only one of the points we were going to talk about, but man, it just seeing Facebook has a dumpster fire last night and the reminder of why I shouldn’t spend much time on there. Um, and then this idea of it’s your job to defend.

I’m just like, man, it’s, it’s not, it shouldn’t be, it’s not supposed to be God’s bigger than that. 

Josh: And the tagging on what you’re saying, like, um, man, you knew the matters so much in the church. Um, and I should say you do the matters to Jesus. So much of the church to the point that he said you’ll be known, but how you love one another, like your unity is your defining piece of this community.

It does not matter in the church today. We just choose to draw a new line and run in that one lane. Um, and unfortunately that’s sad. Um, but to have unity means you will disagree on certain things and that’s okay. Um, I think you have to define in your head what’s the central I’m going to be very, um, Be very specific on what’s essential and do the work to figure out what’s actually essential and what’s not essential.

Um, you know, I said earlier, baptism to me is not essential in how it’s done. Um, now I think scripture is clear on how it should be done and how it was demonstrated, but I can agree to disagree as long as we agree on the gospel and what the gospel is. As long as we agree on who God is, who Jesus is, who the holy spirit is in the Trinity, I think we can agree on the rest of it or disagree on the rest of it.

Um, you know, whether or not have women elders can agree to disagree on it. Um, uh, certain versions of the Bible is the only version you preach through. We can agree to disagree on it. Um, so I think if we take those stances and we hold the, just the essentials as the core of, of our commonality, um, just like the early church did with the apostles.

Everything else can be up for debate. We can agree to disagree on the rest of it. Um, and I think that’s the only way you’re going to come to unity is agreeing to disagree on some things. And I know that’s hard to hear. It’s hard for us to live in that. Um, but that’s the reality of it. Like that’s the only way you come to unity is, is you’re going to have to agree to disagree on some things.

And that’s okay. As long as they’re not essential. Now, if you’re going to come in and say, you know, no, as long as you’re a really good person, you know, um, then, then you’re, you’re all set. Um, well that, that goes against my essential belief. Like we can’t, we can’t play that game because you’re going to lead people to your lead people away from salvation rather to salvation.

Like we’re going to problem with that. Uh, I would argue that an essential belief is God is about relationship because the great commandments are about relationship. That’s an essential belief. Um, if you think that Christian faith is about anything other than that, um, I probably have a problem with it.

Um, but outside of that, there’s probably not a lot of other essential beliefs that I wouldn’t be okay with saying, Aaron, get greeted disagree. Now some of those might be hard. Like I had an upbringing where like, yeah, there’s certain things that are really going to bother me. Um, but I’m going to choose to hold my tongue for the sake of relationship for the sake of unity.

Now, if there’s an opportunity where we can have healthy debate about it in a respectful way. Yeah. Let’s debate about it. Let’s talk about it. I think that’s all great. But if it’s to draw lines in the sand and say, you’re right, And only these people are in that belief that this way that’s not unity, you’re doing the opposite of, of what Christ commanded us.

And yeah. You know, we’re never going to get to that place. And I think that’s where this belief comes from. That’s creating so much is there’s this need to defend God’s positions on things. Even inside the church, like this is not even bring in the conversation of everything outside of the church, uh, the world and how we have to feel this need to defend God’s position compared to what the world thinks is true.

Or his relative dude inside 

Andrew: the church. Oh, sorry. You finished your thought. My bad. Okay. 

Josh: Um, I don’t remember what the rest of my thought was. He already interrupted me and I’ve lost it. This is great. 

Andrew: I thought I was being patient and waiting, but. As you were saying that, and maybe this can, I know we’ve, we’re a little bit late and we both got to run shortly.

Um, but you, something you said in there sparked the, the story of, um, of the woman caught in adultery and how Jesus, uh, handled that. And I didn’t look it up in my Bible exactly where it’s found, but I think it’s in all of the, all of the gospels where basically Jesus comes up on the scene of a woman who had been caught in adultery.

And the Jewish custom at this time was when that happens. The woman is stoned to death publicly. Rocks are hurled out a person until they die, or until they’re maimed that they’re so close to death and, and everybody knows what happens for the rest of their life. You know, it’s like pretty terrible, really.

Um, so he walks into the scene where the stoning is about to happen. And this woman probably in hysterics is, you know, I would think screaming because she knows what’s coming and there’s, there’s a bunch of people, a bunch of dudes there. I’m ready to throw some stones quite literally, um, So Jesus, like they, they recognize him as a teacher of the law or rabbi PLA person of like extremely high regard in, in the Jewish society.

And he basically intervenes and, um, does so with kind of some quiet authority. I don’t think he walks in shouting stop, stop, stop. I think he just walks in and kind of, you could hear like a metaphorical pen drop is how I read it, where everybody stops, what they’re doing, because it’s intense. What they’re about to do.

They’d take a minute step back and they look at him as a rabbi, as a teacher of God’s word and he squats down and quite literally start. Writing, you know, on, in the dirt and the sand below them. And a lot of scholars think he was writing out the sins that all of the people that were about to stone, this woman, that they haven’t been caught in, but that he was aware of, like he’s writing out these things and maybe that’s not what it was, but that’s the interpretation I’ve heard.

Um, and one by one, the people who had these rocks that were about to throw them at the woman dropped their stones and kind of saunter away, or like, you know, exit stage left quietly, um, until it’s just Jesus and the woman standing there and her Jewish culture at that point, highest rabbi, he has the chance like honored rabbi.

He could pick up stones and just start throwing them. And, uh, and instead he looks up at the woman and says, look, Where are your accusers? Um, they’re gone, you know, she’s like, they’re gone. It’s like, okay, now go and send no more, you know, like, go like experience this grace. I just showed you. I interviewed quite literally saved your life.

Now go and sin no more. And like turn from this behavior, go and live your life for God, instead of living your life for this. And, you know, um, or whatever sins got you there. And it’s just this like grace incarnate and like, you know, it’s so applicable to social media. It’s so applicable to the way we think it’s so applicable to the way we speak.

It’s like, what chances do we have to go and intervene and show grace? You know, instead of being the one throwing the stone, cause anybody can do that. If you’re worked up enough, you know? Um, but how do you step in from this place where you’re like, no, I’m going to intervene and I’m going to like.

Actually show grace. So, um, I don’t know, that’s a, that’s a loose interpretation of what Jesus did, but, um, yeah, but I think it’s a good 

Josh: metaphor to think about, um, Hebrews mess or Googling right now. I’m pretty sure it’s Hebrews 12, um, where, uh, the Hebrew writers talking about, um, the similar idea of, well kind of similar idea it’s related, I promise I’ll come back around.

Um, but there’s this idea that like here, here was your example of how to live this life. It was, it was Christ lived for 33 years here on earth. Um, use that example as, as your source. Um, and there’s a lot of things that Jesus did that turned even the religious community upside down. Right. Um, there’s that piece of it as well.

So like Jesus showed grace in that moment, um, with the woman and the Stoney. Um, so what do we do we choose to show grace was the woman in the wrong 100%. Like we know that it’s and there’s no secret that it’s sin, but do we show grace at the moment? Yeah, 100% we show grace because that’s the right.

That’s the right response. Um, I think you’re never going to be wrong if you choose to show grace. And then you’re like, well, what happens? I just keep showing grace over and over again. And they keep sending incentive. Okay. They keep singing it. So what’s your, how’s that your problem? Like Jesus does the life change, not you and they don’t even do the life change.

If they’re choosing not to walk with Jesus, she’s not to walk with Jesus. Like what does it have anything to do with you? Well, it’s hurting me and the people around me. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Pointed out to them, like speak truth, but like it’s still their decision to make, as they want to make it show grace. I think you’re going to be okay.

Um, you know, Jesus says how many times do we forgive? We forgive a buttload. That was the point of that whole conversation, a number that is beyond our ability to forgive or to stop. Right? Like we just keep forgiving. Is that hard? Yeah. 100%. It’s hard. Does it benefit them? No, not really. Forgiveness is for you.

So either you hold onto it and let that run your life for the next 15, 20 years, or you choose to forgive and move on and let it all go. Um, does it really matter? Um, but yeah, but Josh, it’s my kid and he’s pissing me off and making me look bad. Okay. I don’t tell you like. Um, but like, forgive anyways. It’s like, what’s the harm in that show?

Mercy show grace. Um, it’s okay. Um, it’s probably really your pride at play anyways. Cause they’re making you look bad. I’m like, let’s be honest research about the other 

Andrew: people, that little bit about your kids. So my 

Josh: mom’s groups, horrible mom. It’s okay. They probably already do just get over it. You think the same of them?

It’s okay. Show grace and mercy. You’ll be fine. I promise we choose. That’s a community that’s attractive when we live in that we show grace and mercy speak truth. Don’t stop speaking truth, but you speak truth and grace and mercy is a different way. And then speaking truth. And let’s be honest, pride and hate is really where we like to speak most of our trees.

Cause it makes us feel better about ourselves. Yeah. Um, but yeah, choose, choose. So grace chooses to show mercy, um, fight for unity and unity means at times you’re going to be, you’re going to disagree with each other probably on big issues and that’s okay. As long as they’re not essential issues. Yeah.

Yeah. But yeah, those are some faulty views. Uh, there’s other faulty views that we didn’t cover and we probably won’t cover, but Hey, when the hope study comes out and always buy it and cover it together with, with friends, people that love Jesus and love you in that order. That’s how the hope study is designed.

I actually just started building the website for it, and we’re not selling the hope study by itself. You don’t get to buy just one copy of the hope study. You have to buy a minimum of two copies because that’s cool. In relationship. Yeah. It also makes us more money, but that’s not the point. It’s really just it’s relationship like doing this by yourself is not going to have any impact on your life.

I don’t think. Yeah, because nothing doing by yourself really has a major impact on your life and it’s got to be done in relationship jeez. And relationship. So, yeah. Thanks for tuning in Andrew as always. My, my buddy. I love you. Good to see you 

Andrew: too, man. Good to see you. Thanks for listening to our show. It really means a lot to us and we hope that it helps bring you closer in your relationship with Jesus and with others.

Josh: And also helps us out if you rate our podcast or leave us a review on whatever platform you’re listening and also follow us on Instagram and the Facebook. Now sharing this with your friends. Isn’t just to get the word out of the podcast. We believe that we have the message of hope that’s found in the gospel of Jesus Christ and you sharing.

This has the ability to transform the world lives. The people around 

Andrew: you. We want to hear from you. You can email [email protected] You can message us on Facebook and Instagram, or you can just visit [email protected] But seriously, thanks for listening.

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