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The Powerful Tool of the Enemy
Episode No. 87

Conversation Seven. We talk through how our relational trust has been formed and destroyed throughout our lives and how we choose to live in relational trust today. Not an easy process, but it is where we find the full life Jesus promised.

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Josh – Hello hello hello we’re just 2 normal dudes trying to live this jesus life. My name’s Josh.

Andrew – Hey I’m Andrew we are this jesus life podcast Josh we’re back. We’re live. It’s happening. We’re doing this again. What’s going on my friend how you doing.

Josh – Andrew dude it is do today’s one of those days I just drank a sip of coffee as my that’s what we need. We need a sponsorship from wandering bear um, not that they’re ever going to listen or sponsor this podcast. But.

Andrew – Oh.

Josh – I Would love free coffee from them because there’s coffee’s amazing and I say that drinking every type every type of ice coffee that’s out there I’ve had it all you name it I’ve gone through this grocery stores the different grocery stores and grabbed everything they’ve had and none of it’s good.

Andrew – And listen I Love amazing coffee. Yes, go ahead. Sorry yes, ah.

Josh – Ah, most of it is like cold breod stuff and I’m not a huge fan of Cold Brew I Just want ice coffee but this stuff this stuff is cold brew. It doesn’t taste like cold brewd. It’s pretty good but I just I must be really really tired I don’t know why but it must be because when I when I took a sip of that coffee.

Andrew – A.

Andrew – Right.

Andrew – Yeah, yes, okay Josh when you have when you have kids two little kids that is every morning when you take your first good sip of coffee. It’s like a jolt through your body and you’re just like ah.

Josh – And just like felt it like go through my body and like wake me up a little bit. You’re just like oh that’s not good.

Josh – I bet.

Andrew – That’s what I needed like that’s why I love coffee. Yeah yeah, man right? right? right? right.

Josh – Well I don’t know what it is I think it’s um, not I’m not sleeping Well I don’t realize I’m not sleeping well but I must not be I should put like a camera in my bedroom or something and like watch my sleep and see if I like move around a lot then it’s probably gonna be like what was that paranormal effect or whatever that movie was.

Andrew – Activity. Ah.

Josh – And where they’re like filling himself sleep and there’s be like weird crap like that going on my room and then I’ll have to move out because it’ll just freak me out like I’m out or like my dog is like biting me or like peeing on me or something while I’m sleeping I don’t even know it. Yeah.

Andrew – Ah, yeah, you’ll Jack will just be like biting at your ear low all night and you’ll be like oh that’s why I’m not sleeping well is my turn talk. Ah I keep.

Josh – That’s why my ear is bleeding when I get up in the morning. Dude I was in a meeting I was in a meeting yesterday. Ah talking to some people and I picked up Jack and you know showing him off on the camera. Whatever he saying hi to people and he peed on me.

Andrew – Having a pierced steer in the morning. Yeah.

Andrew – Um, right? Ah, no way. Ah, dear.

Josh – Like I went to put them down and I was like dude you smell like urine and I put them down and I was freaking peace spot on my chest you dog.

Andrew – Where it was your bicon like could people hear what was happening to you while you were pied on.

Josh – Yeah I told him like I showed him I was like my freaking dog just pee on me I’ll bear it back.

Andrew – Ah, that is so funny. Oh man I don’t know if I ever told you this but I was doing like you know I’ve been mainly work from home for like 9 years now the whole time I’ve worked for the ministry of work for. It’s been work from home anyway, um.

Josh – Hug.

Andrew – 1 time I was working at my in-law’s house and this was like when we were moving back from Pennsylvania and like I had this tiny tiny desk in the spare room that was filled with mainly our stuff and and I was using a really small just hard wooden chair as my desk chair. Um and dude. I ah literally while I was talking on Zoom. It was just me and 1 other guy this chair collapsed like fell like I went from just talking to to straight up on the ground in like one second you know.

Josh – I Remember the story that’s funny.

Andrew – And it was the funniest thing because it was like a getting to know you conversation with this new guy and here I am collapsing in my Zoom chair but I had my I had plugin headphones to the computer they stayed. They stayed plugged plugged in the whole time.

Josh – Oh gosh us good.

Andrew – So he heard my live reaction like hitting the floor falling on side and of like and I’m starting a diet. Yeah, something like that something like that. So that very non ah non you know business eque ah came out of my mouth. But yeah Dan ah is crazy.

Josh – Ah, you’re like oh shit. Yeah.

Josh – No, that’s funny.

Josh – That’s pretty good least you have that shared experience now every time you see him now. He’s far like how’s your chair.

Andrew – Crazy. But I’ve never I’ve never been peed on by my dog. Wow Yeah yeah, is dude as you chair going you are right? Ah, yeah, good times, Good times working from home. It does.

Josh – Ah, but dude, good chair, good chair changes your life like you need a good chair if you’re working at a desk you know 9 to 5 or whatever we actually working. Yeah.

Andrew – It does which I now have a good chair but that was that was in the in-between you know before I had actually set up my my home office in my cause we’t have this home. You know so I was just like making it work for a while and but yeah man when you were working on a crappy.

Josh – Yeah, yeah.

Andrew – Wooden chair or just really uncomfortable one. It stinks and I’m trying to use my standup desk more? Yeah, go ahead? yeah.

Josh – Well I didn’t realize like how and like I don’t know a brand this is but it’s one of those stupid expensive chairs and I didn’t realize like how much it does for you because I’ve just always used it until like you talk to friends that are just like miserable.

Andrew – Right.

Josh – Ah, in their chairs and then you’re like oh I guess yeah I guess I have really good chairs. It doesn’t even it’s like I’m sitting on a cloud all day with support. Ah, it’s ugly. It’s an ugly chair like if you know it wasn’t works I wouldn’t have it but it’s ah it’s definitely nice.

Andrew – Yeah, ah but it’s awesome.

Andrew – Right? right? We’re right? Yeah dude totally.

Josh – You don’t realize how nice it is but dude. Yeah, if you haven’t heard yet because you haven’t been listening to our podcasts or you haven’t been in conversation with us where we just slip it in. We have a partnership with dwell dwell is a bible app that lives on your phone. It’s an audio bible app.

Andrew – Um, right right? Yes, we do.

Josh – Read by passionate people reading scripture that actually really care about it. Um, so you don’t know more those monotone voices or even your own voice If you’re reading it. You actually get individuals that are passionate about reading the scriptures that they’re reading. Um great tool of Foster relationship gets you started in the morning.

Andrew – E.

Josh – Ah, maybe you know when you jump in the shower you know instead of taking a paper bible in there with you because that that always ends poorly. You can actually just play dwell from your phone or from a speaker and just listen to ah whatever God has desired to tell you that day and let that be a jumping off point for your.

Andrew – Right.

Josh – Continue conversation with god through prayer. But you can check out dewell at this jesus life podcast dot com for slash duwell and that’s a great place to get started with foster relationship with Jesus if you’re not doing it on a regular basis now Andrew dude what are we doing.

Andrew – oh yeah oh yes yeah well I can’t believe it that’s kind of crazy I feel like yesterday we said um.

Josh – I Think we only have four of these left.

Andrew – Okay I don’t feel like yesterday. But I don’t feel like it’s been that long ago that we’re like let’s do this relationship conversations piece. And yeah, so this is number 7 in our conversations series. Where basically the goal is for us to model. Um, this this set of conversations of like how to build deep relationship together. We believe that that christians as followers of Christ who are in relationship with god we should be experts at relationship. We also believe most of us. Suck at this and or we’re too busy to build deep relationships. We’re scared of the trust it takes to build deep relationships. All of that. So Josh and I are doing our best to model this and heads up. We’re breaking one of the most important rules in this which these discussions are supposed to be really kind of confidential between you and 1 or 2 other people like this is supposed to be done within trust and and between just the people having that conversation. We’re obviously recording a podcast with it. So with that. You know we we probably trim down our level level vulnerability just a little bit to make sure that we are honoring people who haven’t given consent for us to share stories or certain things that Josh and I would share if we were just. Truly talking to 1 another in this um where we’re doing it to model it. So um, the goal is to build better relationships with people and also take these same skills and apply them to your relationship with god especially through prayer and and how you think about god how you see god. Um, all of that we’ve been last couple weeks. We’ve really been nailing into like yeah, everything from family of origin to to how you view god currently and how you view god in the past this week. We dig a lot more into trust which. Is a big deal in relationship. You got to have have trust in people and trust in god if you’re going to have relationship with god and relationship with people but it’s not easy because trust can be broken. So anyway. Um. Josh that’s hopefully a good setup of where we’re going with conversation number 7 and man if we can just dive in I question for you is ah, can you think of an experience or 2.

Andrew – That affected how you trusted others.

Josh – Um, most definitely um I’m one of those I was one of those kids that like kept track of these things in my head. It’s funny I but I have a nephew now that anyway that my nephew’s been wronged. He he remembers it so when he gets in trouble.

Andrew – Yeah. Um, Oh yeah.

Josh – Um, his parents send into his room. He just yells from his bedroom all the ways that he they’ve wronged him which I find absolutely hilarious. They probably don’t find them hilarious pret man that is a good day. Yeah, there’s definitely a moment where you’re like man I hope he gets in trouble today.

Andrew – Oh no, oh oh poor parents they bet they hate that gouch.

Josh – Um, because I want to hear what his parents have been up to and it’s like stupid things. It’s like dad when we went to seven eleven you said shit slow buddy I just told some of that story recently I need to bring it up with my brother again.

Andrew – Oh man.

Andrew – Ah, that’s so funny. Oh man.

Josh – He’s he’s he’s missed it for the last nine months since he’s been deployed. He’s about to get back end of the month. But um, yeah, that’s that’s a pretty good so but I’d similar traits as a child I didn’t like use it in that way. But I definitely used it to play victim in some ways when it came to relationship so like.

Andrew – Right? right? right? nice.

Andrew – Um.

Josh – Experiences are like moving away from friends those types of things are definitely there experience where like someone breaks your trust even when you’re a child like it reaffirms or or starts to affirm negative feelings towards relationship. So like I think I told this on the podcast a few weeks ago but I had a buddy when I was like in.

Andrew – Um, yeah.

Josh – 6 or seventh grade I like that that I shared with the girl that I liked then he went around and told everybody that kind of thing you’re like tur bag kids be in turd bags. Um, but then there’s like bigger things that happen that.

Andrew – Yeah.

Andrew – Yep, yeah.

Josh – A little bit harder to share on a podcast because you know it involves people that probably listen to the podcast or you you don’t want to share their dirty laundry out there anyways, not these aren’t family members who just close friends throughout the years and things that have happened that that either reaffirm.

Andrew – Yeah.

Andrew – Great.

Josh – False Beliefs you already had where people aren’t trustworthy. People are always going to harm you. You’re not safe. Um those kind of things or they’re going to start to question good thoughts. You’ve you’ve had of you know relationship matters relationships hard but it it you know is good for you. You need these things you need to be fully known by people.

Andrew – Um, yeah.

Andrew – Um, yeah.

Andrew – Um, yeah.

Josh – Um, and then you start to question. Well this happened can I go through this again. Is it worth it. Those kind of things. But yeah, there’s definitely experiences I’m trying to think of something that I could share that wouldn’t.

Andrew – Right? Do you have a funny one from when you were a kid that is is less serious. That’s funny now or or not so much.

Josh – Um, yeah, ah I don’t know hope it relates to this but it was funny so I had a buddy when I was little so like this is first grade. Maybe.

Andrew – Okay.

Josh – Before my parents divorced I think so I was I was young but I had a friend across the street that lived with his grandparents. We’re like hanging out playing around or whatever we had another friend that ah.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah.

Josh – We’d hang out from time time and play whatever and somehow we got crossways with each other and you know the the famous line of get off my property was going around. Um well his dad heard this argument and like came at us. Ah and were like.

Andrew – Um, yeah.

Josh – Being smart as children. So we talk back and you know defend ourselves and then you know try to piss the dad off as well. Well we piss them off enough that he start chasing us and as as as like just getting away freaking drilled me in the ass with his boot. Ah.

Andrew – Who now? Oh no.

Josh – But just funny now. But you’re like dude what was going on in the 90 s it’s okay to kick a child. That’s yours.

Andrew – Totally totally dude. The ninety I was chased by an adult a few times and like it’s things were different than man. Yeah, yeah.

Josh – So look crazy hey they were dude I I ran across the street once and like in like we were on a pretty quiet street. So like the car couldn’t have been going fast looking back at it but like the car felt like i. Cut him off and like ran in front of him kind of thing. Dude he got out of his car and like chased me down and like scolded me for like 10 minutes and you’re like where the hell are my parents right now somebody meant me.

Andrew – Oh my gosh. Ah big 1 time me and my friend Eric were walking at the bottom of the neighborhood we lived in and and we had like there was this paint ball. We had played paintball down by the woods and like I don’t know if you know I’m sure you know this because you used to do paintball but if they get wet they like swell up and they’re like tiny water balloons with paint still in them. Basically um, anyway, Eric and I both had a couple of those in our hands. And there’s this car that comes flying down the road. We’re walking up which like we’re not far from my house like just to our left if you turn there’s a ravine that runs straight up kind of between the houses to to behind my parents’ house and.

Josh – But.

Andrew – I tell Eric right? at the last minute like right as I toss a paintball I was like I’m going to throw a paint I’m going to get this car and so I toss it behind us like behind my back. Thinking I’m playing it real cool and like that he’s going to have no way of knowing it was from us because I was being dumb as a kid and it splatters right on the dude’s windshield and and man he slams on his brakes jumps out of the car.

Josh – Oh gosh.

Andrew – Ah, like throws the car and park jumps out and and Eric’s like in his state of shock and I’m like rund and I start sprinting up the ravine and Eric does too. But but he was a little bit slower than I was because he didn’t have that head start and the guy like. Catches him grabs him by the shoulder and is like yelling at him and meanwhile I stop like thirty feet away and I’m like should I go back should I keep running so I eventually like work up the courage and go back up and the guy’s yelling like did you throw something at my car and I’m like what are you talking about? It’s like there’s paint on my car. I’m like yeah I don’t know maybe and then like he was ticked man. It was a scary experience. But yeah and like what was happening like yeah, we deserved it for sure. He didn’t hurt us or anything but he yelled at us. He’s like I could have had a get in the car and I’m like the road was flat and straight. He’s like still.

Josh – But Ivy mad.

Josh – Yeah.

Andrew – Then I don’t know man it was it was dumb but 1 of those moments of like I could have left Eric left him to try but I I made my I worked up some courage and came back. You know could have been a total trust breaking thing for my end. Um it was just a dumb kid thing. So anyway, man something going on in the 90 s things were different. That’s for sure that’s for sure.

Josh – That’s crazy. Yeah, the things that people used to feel get away with mind boggling makes you wonder like what are the real cause like makes you wonder to like what are all the real crazy stories that are out there that like they couldn’t be filmed like that’s probably a benefit of social media of like everything’s recorded now.

Andrew – Um.

Andrew – Um, yeah.

Josh – Um, you know there’s plenty of bad things about social media but like this may be 1 of them and that’s a good thing. Ah, but yeah, that’s the 90 s man. They’re a lot. The crazy I was just had in this conversation this weekend like the 90 S clothing style was the worst clothing style ever existed. And I generally thought as we were going back through the 80 s clothing and like all the weird stuff was coming back I really thought they were going to skip the 90 s and the two thousand s and they’re not like the 90 s are back in hip. It’s the bag of t-shirts and mom jeans are still around. You’re like this is crazy. Ah.

Andrew – Right.

Andrew – Um, yeah, they’re not. It’s coming back man. It’s so weird. It’s so weird man it’s cool again.

Josh – You would think we like figure out another style to fit in there in the cycle that that happens. But nope we’re not, we’re just we just keep repeating like the 2000 it’s go to be. It’s going to be polo shirts with an under colored undershirt underneath it rolling up the sleeves like.

Andrew – Dude american eagle cargo sch shortz are about to make a huge comeback. You know that was ah that was a big deal for a while ah early 2000 yeah yep yes yeah, popping both callers.

Josh – That’s going to be the next look. Ah both callers I forgot about both callers.

Andrew – Oh man. Yeah, it’s dude. It’s gonna it’s gonna happen man. It’s gonna happen. Yeah to like no I wasn’t I wasn’t but I did I was close to it. You know I was like almost there and then I was like now I’ll just go one one collar pop.

Josh – Were you ever a both caller guy.

Josh – I don’t know if I ever popped my collar not intentional I did the I did the rolled up sleeve thing so you had like an colored under shirt underneath your I did do that I wore a lot of Nadtica clothing like when would it have been probably my junior.

Andrew – And what you know single polo but oh man so weird. So weird. Dude.

Andrew – Oh.

Josh – No I was probably younger than that now I had to been then because I was driving I’d drive up to the Nadica Outlet mall buy anything I didn’t have and buy buy things I mean use My mom’s credit card to buy things I didn’t have Um, yeah I can’t remember it must have been like Junior and Senior year high school.

Andrew – Um, ah, that’s funny. That’s funny.

Josh – Went through a phase my sophomore year high school where it was like straight Adidas and like white jean shorts like that was that was the look that was the crew that was the crew I was hanging out with slicked back hair like shave sides to your head little mushroom top that was completely slicked back. Yeah, that was me I was.

Andrew – Nice white Jean shorts. Ah, that’s funny. Yes, yes.

Josh – I was a douchebag a wannabe douchebag. The.

Andrew – Ah, ah, all right? dude serious question. Do you think your fashion choices affected how you trust people because when I’m hearing you hearing you say I’m back.

Josh – Probably I was probably scolded about it here’s like you are the worst dress person I’ve ever seen you like whatever leave me alone. This is what cool kits wear. It was.

Andrew – Ah that’s so funny. Oh man I will say okay, serious though like it so this is a hard question to do on a podcast for sure and there’s a few things I’d tell you Josh if it was just us because you’re. Ah, one of the one of the people that that I am the real me with as much as possible like real trust exists there and actually we we kind of formed a lot of that trust through just starting to an accountability together and I feel like we maybe should get back to that I know we’re both crazy busy and that’s ah. That’s that’s why we kind of just stepped away from it. But anyway man all that to say I do remember growing up my my brother is eight years older than me so I had the benefit of watching him like go through high school while I was a lot younger. And get in trouble for doing things that high schoolers do and watched him kind of get ah caught and and like get in trouble from my parents. So I think I learned how to be a lot sneakier of like not necessarily affecting how I trust people just like I’m not going to get caught in the way he did. You know I’m going to try to be sneakier about it. So I don’t know I think that probably has affected how I trust others just even from that younger age of like 1112 watching watching my older brother get in lots of trouble and be like well I’m going to avoid that mistake of getting caught.

Josh – So yeah.

Andrew – Not I’m going to avoid those mistakes just well I should be sneakier than that. So anyway man that’s that’s 1 thing that came to mind that probably yeah.

Josh – Yeah I think too like um this is probably true for a lot of people. It was true for me like um when when the safety of your home. So my parents divorced I shared this on the podcast when I was in first grade like.

Andrew – Sure.

Josh – You don’t realize the effects that that has on you in the moment and kids are resilient but at the same time like your your safety net or your security and you know you and I be both being eights security matters to us. We don’t want to be harmed um like that just implodes on itself. Um, because like.

Andrew – Um, yeah.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah.

Josh – What was supposed to always be secure was was now taken apart. Um, and and the effects that that house on you I think it starts to teach you to do life on your own like it’s just you so you like learn all those coping skills that that.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh – Like you engage with people. Yeah, you’re a part of the family but at the same time like it’s different like you’re not, You’re not fully engaged like you could be and it it shapes your worldview it it shapes your you know your family origin speaks so much into your identity that you realize it’s abnormal.

Andrew – And.

Andrew – Yeah.

Josh – Until that family of origin starts to get poked at right that you’re like oh there was different kinds of fame like even to the point where like um I remember having a buddy in like middle school where he used to live in South Dakota and his family was pretty tight and he would like tell me stories about like they were like relatively intimate things about their.

Andrew – Maybe.

Josh – About like how they’re their family and engaged with each other and I thought it was the weirdest thing I’ve ever heard I was like what the hell is wrong with your family I think it was like something stupid like he was taking a shower and is like dad came and took a pest or something and you’re like what that’s so gross and weird. Um.

Andrew – Um, yeah, yeah, right, right? What how could you ever do that? yeah. Yeah.

Josh – Right? Things like that were like just it was mind blowing to me that this type of thing but it’s not abnormal like like it is what it is um, you know if dad got in the show with you in seventh grade. Yeah, then we got real issues like some would just say something.

Andrew – Right? right? right? Yeah, that’s that’s bad. That’s not good. Don’t That’s not a good thing. No so.

Josh – But but like yeah, there’s it was the intimacy things that you’re like whoa. That’s that’s crazy strange that that that’s happening but like that’s those nors. What family intimacy looks like and there was that piece of it that like just blew my mind because I didn’t realize it was a thing even till later.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh – Like I remember thinking about that so that situation and you’d be like oh holy crap I was in the wrong on Alllan like I thought like that was crazy. It’s more crazy that like we don’t talk about real things or whatever you don’t get that type of support like you would have if.

Andrew – The.

Josh – You were more engaged which probably makes you become much more difficult of a child to to lead I don’t know how you respond to that either Siri but that’s offensive that you tell me that right after I share a story like that. Sorry if you didn’t hear that other podcast Sheri just yeah Siri.

Andrew – Yeah, just so you know guest hosted this jesus life guest hosted by siri today. Ah Apple decided to go ahead and be a part of this. So yeah, yeah.

Josh – Siri just said I don’t understand that I understand that either siri chill out. Um, but yeah I think there’s that piece that we didn’t realize like how how separated we become. Even we’re inside like.

Andrew – Ah, yeah, man.

Josh – Yeah, my both my parents remarried pretty quick I had siblings all around me. But even in the midst of that you don’t realize like how guarded you’ve become. You’ve created like this mini little bubble. Um, inside of this bigger bubble. Um, and then you kind of function from that and you try to play the game. So nobody pokes your bubble right? like.

Andrew – In.

Andrew – Um, right right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh – At Least that’s how I played it like I’m gonna do enough that you don’t touch my bubble and I can still feel safe inside my bubble because I’m protecting my bubble now like I’m not allowing other people to help me protect my bubble and you know you end up in these pretty I wouldn’t say I never felt. Like I was ever in a dark place but you’re and I wouldn’t even say I felt lonely at times I think I convinced myself that it’s normal. So It’s not lonely. Um, but like you’re definitely separated and you feel the separation. Maybe not of the moment. But after the fact.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah, and like so the next the next question where is is just this. It’s ah, is there anyone in your life that you trust with the real you. What makes you feel safe. Um, and. Man like thank you I got a piece of cookie from my my daughter no 2 pieces. Thank you so much. Um, man the the thing is like if you don’t trust people or or some people with the real you like I don’t know we talk about.

Josh – 2 this is.

Andrew – Like we’ve said this jesus life is is a team sport. You know we’ve talked about it in that way like you’re not meant to go through life alone. You know, even back into genesis 1 or 2 where god made Adam he’s like yeah he saw it wasn’t good for man to be alone. You know so he made eve to be um to do this life alongside Adam you know with Adam um, so basically that to say like it is even from the earliest part of the bible supported like you’re not supposed to try to do this thing alone? Um, and. Man when you when you do try. You can probably succeed for a while but but you’re not going to be able to live this life as fully as you could if you were doing it alongside people and one scripture. That’s that’s kind of supporting in this um that you’ve probably heard. I like weddings and stuff. But it’s ecclesiaste’s 4 9 through twelve two are better than one because they have good reward for their toil for if they fall one will lift up his fellow but woe to him who is alone when he falls and has no has no other to lift him up. Again, if 2 lie together. They keep warm, but how can one keep warm alone and though a man might prevail against one who is alone 2 will withstand him a threefold cord is not quickly broken. Um, with that third chord being god of like 2 people and god. That’s a mighty strong court. You know? Um, but yeah man like I’m getting a little rambly because I’m a little distracted by my daughter coming in with her snack and playing with tape but I’ll just say like we really do need to do life together and for me like. Don’t I’m not quick to trust and open up most fully to a ton of people I’m trying to be vulnerable with many and this podcast has been 1 thing in my life of like I’m going to try to be more vulnerable with people whether I know them well or not. But. The the real me the the full me. Um I would say is trusted most fully by like my wife by you and a couple other close friends like closest friends not not by everybody. You know, um and some of that is ah. Um, probably a lot more guarded based on some of those like the way I grew up and and my personality type and all of that. Ah more guarded, but it’s something I know about myself and I’ve learned about myself is like I got to find ways to be vulnerable and to build real trust with people.

Andrew – And to not even just build real trust because I’m somebody who’s like people are quick to confide in me. Um I’m not quick to to open up and trust others deeply um in my life. So I got to work against my own kind of grain against my natural way of being to do that. So.

Josh – Yeah, no, that’s great and and we’ll cover this topic in a little more detail next week but 1 of the questions for next week that kind of speaks to what you were saying I think.

Andrew – Yeah, man any any thoughts to add to that.

Josh – Maybe it’s not next week maybe it’s a couple of weeks. Yeah, it’s in two weeks it’s harder for you to receive love than to give love in like I highly relate to that in relationship like people share a lot more with me um, throughout my life than I shared with them.

Andrew – Um, yeah.

Andrew – Yep.

Josh – And you get really good at um, yeah, this is ah this is a trick of the trade. But like people do this and realize and people do this and don’t realize it but like authenticity matters and people value authenticity. They want to know the real you.

Andrew – So big time.

Josh – So you learn tricks to share things that don’t feel vulnerable to you but are going to feel like they’re vulnerable to them. So now you feel like you’re on a level but in all reality you’re not being the authentic you you’re just playing a game that got created and I know a lot of people in my life that that do this.

Andrew – Um, yep, yep.

Josh – And you know you sit down and you really think about it. You’re like how well do I know so-and-so so and you’re like man I I actually don’t know them at all and I’ve known them forever like we’re talking people you’ve known for a decade and you’re like I I actually don’t really know the real them if I really like put my my finger on something.

Andrew – Um.

Josh – Like I know things about them I know their story I know them well but I wouldn’t say I know the real them mainly because like you’ll hear other stories about them and you’re like whoa. Okay I didn’t know that was going on or I know that was a problem or whatever and you’re shocked by it. But I think we all do that to some extent like.

Andrew – Um, right right? Wait What how that happened? Yeah yeah.

Josh – Especially in Christian circles because we know vulnerability matters and authentic, authentic, authentic, whatever being authentic in relationship matters because you hear it preached. But I think we learned to play the game so I could stay you know, separated to protect myself oftentimes and.

Andrew – Yeah.

Josh – What ends up happening when we find ourselves in those places is like yeah we can. We can get away with it for a long time and and probably even a lifetime you could get away with it. But it’s It’s really exhausting like it’s it’s tiring to live in that place. Um, it takes a lot out of you to live in that place. Um, you’re trying to manage so many things and probably anxiety plays plays a big role in that as Well. You’re terrified that people are going to find out the real you know who the real you is or what you thought about you know that situation or how you actually wanted the react but you just walked away instead or whatever that last 10 percent is of you.

Andrew – Right? right.

Josh – Um, that you’re just holding back from people and and not being the true you with people like that’s that’s an exhausting life and like Andrew said too like you you miss out in that full life that Jesus promised you right? like that full life that Jesus said and you know in John Ten ten he says the the thief comes to steal kill and destroy.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah.

Josh – But I have come to give you life and give it to the full that full life that Jesus or other versions say the abundant life like that’s not physical things um to some extent. It’s experience. But it’s rooted in relationship like we find the full life when when we foster relationship with Jesus and we foster relationship with people. And we’re authentic in both of those places like if we don’t dig into the hard things about our life and talk about those things with Jesus and talk about those things with our friends. Um, like we just internalize those things and now that creates just another barrier that I have to now overcome to get to a greater maturity in my relationship with Jesus. And when I say maturity where I’m not saying like more information knowledge you’re like you know the bible inside and now so you’re super mature. That’s that’s not what maturity is and in our relationship of Jesus Maturity is becoming you know more and more of the fruits of the spirit in your life and allowing those to start to ooze out of you because you’ve just dealt with the crap.

Andrew – Write rate.

Josh – Of your Childhood. You’ve dealt with the crap of things that have happened to you that you’ve done um the sin that you’ve you’ve struggled with throughout your life and the devastating effects that Sin has had on you and all the others around you like when you start to deal with that stuff and the fruit starts to come out like that’s where that that full life lives. And then we get to have these new experience with people because we’re the authentic self no matter where we go. We’re not, We’re not missing out on anything. We don’t feel like um, we’re holding anything back now like being the full authentic self doesn’t mean you know you go into every environment and share all your secrets.

Andrew – Um, right right.

Josh – And it’s even like you know on this podcast like there’s definitely things about our lives that we’re not talking about because this is a public form and in an all honesty like it’s easier to share more intimate things in public forms than it is to share face-to-face This is where a lot of pastors get themselves in trouble.

Andrew – A a a.

Josh – Um, that they share all these things from a pulpit that nobody else really knows about and they’re like whoa that was I felt so connected because we’re using it as ah, a tool for for either manipulation or a tool for um, getting people to move in the direction. We need them to move Either way, There’s probably some form of manipulation at play here.

Andrew – Um, right right.

Josh – Um, but like it’s those pieces and then you know their life implodes because no one was actually near them. It was just crowds of people that they felt close to but in all reality no one was around them to see the real them and then you end up these weird cycles and you pride takes over and you feel like you deserve something. You don’t deserve and you know.

Andrew – Right? right.

Josh – Ah, start sitting against your wife or against the church or whatever else and you know they could happen almost any situation just use pastors because it’s you know it’s my background to what I know but um, like I think there’s just this big piece of like you’re missing out on so much growth that you can have as a person if you’re not choosing to be authentic. With God and with the people around you like you’re going to stay stuck and we know these stuck people right? like we. We’ve met the guys in their sixty s in their fifty s and sixty s and seventy s that like you’re not sure who their friends actually are they spend a lot of time with their sons. Um, you know that’s the people they communicate with the most because that’s where they feel safe. But.

Andrew – Right.

Andrew – Straight.

Josh – At the same time like that cycle in your in the back of your mind of like what’s my legacy I’m leaving behind and they get these you know midlife crisis because they’re just not a legacy that’s been created because they just never chose to fully be them with the people around them and that full life comes from relationship.

Andrew – He.

Josh – Like that’s where it lives. It’s my investment in people. It’s God’s investment in me, It’s my choosing to foster relationship and in both those spheres getting over my own junk and talking those out with God and with friends and.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah.

Josh – Like in the midst of that is where we start to find the maturity in the full life and now I have an opportunity to help others experience the same thing you know so often we look at these old guys and gals that have been living. You know this Jesus life for a long time or I should say living a Christian life for a long time and yet they they don’t look any different.

Andrew – Yeah.

Andrew – Yeah, more more.

Josh – Than they did when they gave their life to Jesus and you’re like man you’ve missed out on so much opportunity. Not just for what the kingdom work could be done sure you’re missing them on that too of like the investment in people but like your life could have been so much easier to handle I’m not saying circumstance wise there’s circumstance or circumstances. But how you engage and respond to those circumstances could have made your life so much easier if you just chose to foulation of Jesus so he could take you that maturity process or what we call sanctification. Um to make you more like him like you could have handled that loss in a much different way that it didn’t debilitate. You.

Andrew – Right.

Andrew – Yeah.

Josh – Um, because you knew your identity wasn’t stuck there that you knew that god was going to walk you in the midst of it like there’s all those things that we learn as we mature with Jesus a relationship that give us tools to to to get through difficult things and I think we often missed them. But that’s enough a rant I think Andrew’s back

Andrew – Right? Yeah yeah, I’m here I’m here and man let me just say like I think god designed us to be in relationship with 1 another and and with him with him first and foremost and then with that one another like.

Josh – I can hear him saying yeah right.

Andrew – For being honest, he made 1 person per the bible Adam to be in relationship with him god in the garden and then you know gave him a companion as well and anyway like man chicken analogy if my chickens get out. And which they do sometimes or I let them out and then have to put them back in like if if I’m walking up I have 13 chickens if they are all in 1 place and I’m walking up to them trying to catch one. It is way harder to grab one chicken when they’re all running around like crazy because you can’t. Corral them. You can’t get them into the the tight spot where it’s way easier to get them like up against a fence where it’s like you can only go 2 directions. You know? Um, but man when they’re in a group and they’re they’re working together. They’re usually following the smartest chicken or the most paranoid chicken and and you can’t catch them. You know.

Josh – Um, yeah.

Andrew – But um, but if you get 1 alone It’s actually pretty easy to to pick them off you know and and I know that we’re not chickens. but um but I like I think that we have a very real enemy. You know the bible talks about Satan as being. A roaring lion prowling around looking for a soul to devour and and it doesn’t say a group of souls that in tightly knit community. It’s like no looking for so for 1 to pick off at a time because that’s how it works. It’s like let me isolate. You. Get you feeling the most alone when you’re in a group because you don’t have real relationship or trust with anybody and then I’m gonna mess with you and then I’m gonna make you feel more alone and and push you further from from the open arms of god or do everything that that the enemy can you know Um, so like.

Josh – Yeah.

Josh – So yeah.

Andrew – We’re We’re not meant to do this life alone and we’re not meant to to do a relationship with God alone. Um in my opinion and I think with a lot of good reason. So yeah, man don’t be don’t be the chicken that gets picked off alone like that’s why I try to force myself to be more vulnerable.

Josh – The.

Andrew – With ah with people and like extend like hey I know you could you know like there is a there’s discernment right? like you and I have a level of vulnerability and and my wife and I have a level of vulnerability and and me and a couple other people do. But um, that’s different than what I’m gonna. Extend to everybody and that’s I think fine and and discerning um rather than just like I’m going to tell everybody everything but at the same time if you’re like I’m going to tell everybody nothing then then like that’s isolating and that’s a choice like so so I. My default is to to stay pretty quiet about things. But ah I I need to constantly choose to be vulnerable. Um, and it’s only good for me, you know and it it takes the courage of like okay like. Could misquote me, you could take that out of context you could use that wrong, but but I’m going to choose to be vulnerable even if it feels scary or feels like a stretch in the moment. It’s ah it’s just Better. It’s a better way to live man better way to live. So yeah.

Josh – Wantm to manipulate this next one a little bit for the sake of time. But um I think too and I think we’ve talked about this on the podcast before like the goal. The goal shouldn’t be to find your your trusted people. Um and keep just those trusted people.

Andrew – Okay.

Josh – The goals should be always trying to expand your circle of trusted people. So like you could you know we can sit there and say well. So and so and so and so and so and so that’s my that’s my inner circle those those are the people I’m fully myself with that’s fantastic. That’s awesome. We’re grad girl. Glad you’re there. Ah, most people aren’t um, but like don’t let that those 3 be.

Andrew – Yeah.

Andrew – So right.

Josh – It like you should always be looking to build deeper relationship with the people around you so that circle continues to grow bigger and bigger. Um, and like you’ll recycle it at times like that that happens as well. But like and it could get so big but you just want to be the authentic you every environment you’re in. So things don’t surprise people like you don’t want to be the guy when you murder somebody the whole neighborhood’s like oh he was such a nice guy. Um I can’t believe he did this. They should be like no, we knew the real him he was devilly going to kill John down the block at some point right? like that. That’s a silly example, but like.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah, that’s the goal. Yeah.

Andrew – Ah, right.

Josh – That’s an example. So here’s here’s the next question and Andrew and I both have trusted people so we don’t need to get into that piece but essentially like with the trusted people in your life andrew what makes you feel safe with them I think that’s a bigger bigger question.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah, well, there’s I guess you and I have talked about this, you actually used to say this a lot in youth ministry and we’ve talked about it a lot of times in the podcast but the first filter is like. Do they love Jesus and love you. You know. Do they love god and love you like are they are they people who are trying to to live this jesus life fully like that’s a place to start for me because that that puts us on level ground in a lot of a lot of ways you know, um, secondly. Some time together and like intentionality around time together like I’m not gonna not gonna make a brand new friend tomorrow and be bearing my soul deeply to them tomorrow might be vulnerable and consistent with who I am to them but not a. Hey you’re now my most trusted person in my life that I’ve known for 2 hours like no that’s that’s not wise so some time together to actually build relationship and friendship and and trust um, try to live in a way where I’m extending trust as a given. But that that trust goes deeper and deeper over time of like no I really know you you know like you were talking about of not just I’ve I’ve been around you a ton of times. So I consider you to be my best friend. It’s like no I really trust you based on experiences and knowing who you are and. And you’re a person that that I want to speak into my life. So I deeply trust you you know? Um, so yeah man like level footing of like are they trying to follow god too. That’s a good starting place and then from there giving it time and to an intentionality of like building depth of relationship. Together. Um, yeah I don’t know if that’s too general or if it helps but like that’s that’s probably how I look at it. Um, and and back to your earlier point of being consistent person across the board like man I think that’s that’s key is like. Be who you are with everybody. Don’t don’t try to don’t try to put on a face to please and like I don’t know when especially when you’re younger I think there’s just like a temptation to be all things to all people in the wrong way of like no I just want to blend in everywhere I am. Rather than like I’m just gonna be who I am no matter what setting or group of people I’m I’m with you know and I’m gonna be okay with who god made me to be There’s just a level of calm and and confidence that comes from that. Um, that’s that’s way better because then you’re not trying to.

Josh – Yeah, yeah.

Josh – No.

Andrew – You’re not trying to play games. You’re just like no I’m Andrew I’m Andrew here I’m Andrew there I’m always always Andrew you know I’m not trying to be somebody else. Yeah.

Josh – Well I think yeah and I think it comes it comes from your identity right? like your ability to be the real you in those places is being comfortable with your true identity and what you allow to define who you are and this is where like foster relationship of Jesus becomes so important.

Andrew – Right? right.

Josh – Is like you have to let him be the 1 to define your identity and I can throw out all the buzzwords of like things that god has said about you that you’re dearly loved that. There’s no shame and relationship with him like those are all those are all true statements. But like I think the church talks about him so often that we just ignore them now or we we’ve tried to test them with god and they’re just.

Andrew – Yeah, how race okay.

Josh – They come back untrue because we’re trying to test them with god um, like as we fos a relationship with Jesus and really get comfortable with who we are knowing that god fully knows us that we practice vulnerability and conversation with Jesus like you know why know we’ve said this on the podcast before but if it doesn’t feel like you’re exposing yourself with Jesus when you’re talking to him. You’re not doing it right.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah.

Josh – Um, push harder like and and when you get to those places you get more comfortable with the good and the bad of who you are the thing. The bad you you know you know Jesus working on and we’ll work on someday that it doesn’t define how he interacts with me. It doesn’t change I think so often and we’ve talked about this in previous weeks. So often. We. Allow our behavior to dictate how we think god views us. So yeah, we talked last week I think was you know more good less bad things makes good christian and that’s just not true like god loves you no matter what that it’s not going to change. Um, how he engages with you. Even if you’re in the midst of deep dark sin that’s destructive to not just you but to those around you like god’s still going to engage you in that place like he went to the pits of hell. Um, you know for for our salvation like that’s that’s the beauty of what he’s done and we get to live inside of that.

Andrew – I yeah.

Josh – But for me like this question. The things that make me feel safe. It’s security So like do I feel safe to share things in this that I know aren’t going to be broadcast everywhere. It’s loyalty that no matter what throws at our relationship you’re choosing to engage the relationship either way. Even if I harm you greatly. Like you continue to choose to to engage the relationship. Um, when conflict shows up that you’re willing to engage it like share with me have the ways that I’ve hurt you like I didn’t mean to hurt you if I care about you. It wasn’t my intention to hurt you? Um, so tell me and and I’m more than happy to apologize for it and try to make it right? Um, like those those things matter to me.

Andrew – Yeah.

Andrew – Right.

Josh – Um, that you can share life and you can reciprocate those same things. So like if I’m sharing vulnerability I Want you to be vulnerable as Well. That makes me feel safe. Um and not the matter of like we’re both exposed like I have friends that don’t that aren’t vulnerable at all. Um, they’ll share just enough for it to be relationship but that’s it and I’m choosing to be more vulnerable with them because someone’s got to model it for us to get there. Um, not because I do it perfect every single time but we got to start somewhere. Um, but when we get to a place where we’ve been friends for a long time and it’s not modeled back.

Andrew – Right? right.

Andrew – Yeah.

Josh – Like something starts to happen to your relationship and you start to pull back from that because it starts to feel less safe. You don’t know what’s going on or when you do have conflict with somebody and you’re not hearing it from that person you’re hearing it from somebody else like that’s a huge loyalty issue for me like.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah.

Josh – It takes a lot for me to keep engaging the relationship and I have to keep reminding myself this relationship matters. It matters to me I don’t want to lose it So I’m gonna keep engaging it I’m gonna keep trying to create a safe space or this person will feel like they can share these ways that I’ve wronged with you know with them and you know this weird place now because you heard it second hand and. You know you’re trying to get to those places without you know betraying trust of somebody that told you this to try to fix it. But that person you know and in in cases like that person’s also trying to engage the other individual to to talk share it as Well. That’s healthy conflict but like those are things for me that Matter. Um.

Andrew – Right? Yeah yeah.

Josh – And make me feel safe in the relationship and growth right? like I don’t want to outgrow you if we’re in relationship like I don’t want to get to a place in maturity with Jesus that I now feel like I’m disciple like sure we all disciple each other to some extent but I don’t want to feel like.

Andrew – Okay.

Josh – Playing feel has changed and I’m now ah not above you but like ah you know I mean um, like yeah I don’t I don’t want like that’s hard for me to manage I don’t know what to do in those situations and it starts to hurt relationship.

Andrew – Still moving while everybody else is on the bench right.

Josh – And I can shift gears like if that’s what it’s going to be I can shift gears and and and be a disciple or um, but that’s a different type of relationship when we’re peers trying to walk together and that’s hard for me to manage as well. But I think those are all things that affect safety for me.

Andrew – Right? right.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah, man Well hey, dude I know we’re we’re basically at time and I just wanted to say my final thought is ah is for me This does take a lot of intentionality around my my natural is to to try to go alone.

Josh – But but.

Andrew – On things and um in life. Um, and I think that’s maybe the same for you Josh and if you’re listening to this people and that’s the same for you then recognize that think about it pray about it and then figure out some small ways. That you can remind yourself frequently to extend trust and actually be vulnerable to people because if that’s your natural bent um like it tends to be mine. It’s going to take extra effort to to just start somewhere and to continue starting somewhere with people. Um, but trust matters deeply and relationships matter deeply to god and and how we how we do this life so it’s worth it. It’s it’s always worth putting it out there even if you’re not sure what’s gonna happen like it’s worth building trust with people. Because then you can do life together and we need each other in this life. It’s too hard to try to run it alone. That’s for sure so that’s my that’s my final thought and hopefully a practical takeaway for those of us who are less good at being vulnerable. Naturally.

Josh – Yeah, yeah.

Josh – Yeah, that’s great and I think to another Ah, another great takeaway is you know you get asked all the time you know how are you? um in the midst of answering that question instead of just giving that that you know quick answer of I’m I’m good I’m great or whatever try to take a moment and be honest, like are you feeling stressed or you.

Andrew – Your mess.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah, start there.

Josh – Are you really good or is is things starting to be hard, whatever happens to be you know, share that with with the people that ask those questions but we love you guys. Andrew I love you thanks for? Thanks for joining the day have a great week.

Andrew – Yeah men you 2 men. Yeah.

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