Rejoice with the Truth

Episode No. 029

Truth has been used as a weapon to bring destruction rather than life to those Christians who come in contact with them. We don’t think that was Jesus’ plan. Join us this episode to see how to not delight in evil, but rejoice in the truth in our lives and for the lives of others. 

Verses – 1 Corinthians 13. Verses – Proverbs 2:12-15. Resource – BestSelf Icebreaker Cards.

Josh: Hello. Hello. Hello. We’re just two dudes trying to live this jesus’ life. My name’s Josh. Hey. 

Andrew: I’m Andrew and we are this Jesus life podcast. Josh, how are you? Are you my friend? 

Josh: Andrew dude. I’m well, how are you doing 

Andrew: pretty well? Oh man. It’s a, it’s almost Thanksgiving and, uh, and I’m excited to eat a lot of food.

Um, how about you? You got big plans. 

Josh: That’s real. No, it’s COVID season where I only, I think it’s like, we’re not super crazy. Like. You know, Oregon, who’s like, spired her neighbors and call the police if they break the law. Right. Which is what the heck, but we’re getting there. So really, uh, no personal, no personal gatherings starting on Friday at 5:00 PM or something like that.

Andrew: Yeah. We’re not supposed to have, 

Josh: I don’t know, 

Andrew: Pennsylvania just doesn’t want you to like, they’re like, Oh, you have a family of three. Only two in the house at one time. Like Pennsylvania’s just crazy 

Josh: and wear masks 

Andrew: and be than Hansen’s Tanzer. And, uh, I don’t know, you know, the, the difficult thing about COVID is that when all the restrictions in Pennsylvania are announced, they’re announced by very, very unhealthy, unhealthy looking health official.

I don’t want to take any advice from you on the Hill. 

Josh: You’re like 600 pounds. It looks like you’ve smoked crack your entire life. Like, no, I don’t want to listen. I just 

Andrew: really do 

Josh: not want to accept, help 

Andrew: advice for you. Um, 

Josh: you know, can you like look? No. Yeah. I think all our, all our doubts since come straight from our governor, because he’s just a.

He’s just a winner there. Um, it has to have the spotlight constantly. He’s not as bad as Como over there in New York. Yeah. Feel bad for those people. Yeah. Yeah. But he’s up there. 

Andrew: I have taken a daily briefings from Andrew homo over there. Um, 

Josh: man. So dear dude, I have a question for you. Josh. Yeah. I have some questions for you.

Look at that. 

Andrew: I was curious, um, what is something on your kind of bucket list? Doesn’t even have to be a bucket list. Just like I would love to go there or do this or whatever, just to list. I guess 

Josh: I’d like to ch I like to travel more. So like hit up the Europe thing. I wish I did it. My brother’s out there, but yeah, probably just did not allow, um, what else?

I used to have a bucket list then I’d like, keep track, 

Andrew: keep it in a 

Josh: bucket. I don’t know whatever happened to it. It probably, and that’s probably the problem. I probably thought it was trash. 

Andrew: Get away 

Josh: calf. I should’ve kept that bucket list. 

Andrew: I’ve never understood 

Josh: why people don’t want to keep lists typically on your bucket list.

Andrew: Wait, what? Huh? 

Josh: Uh, I was listening to what you said, like trying to process it. You’re like, wait, what I said, I’ve done a lot of things on people’s bucket lists. Like I’ve done the Safari thing in Africa. Uh, I’ve traveled a decent amount, not a ton, but a decent amount. Um, Wait, when did you do Safari 

Andrew: in Africa?

Was that on that trip? Like to Kenya 

Josh: for your employer? 

Andrew: Yeah, dude, I, I didn’t realize you did that. 

Josh: It was awesome. Yeah, no, it was pretty, it was pretty incredible. 

Andrew: I bet. Um, one of the things that’s on my list is I really want to hike the John Muir trail. Um, it’s part of, 

Josh: is that like the trail that goes through your neighbor’s backyard?


Andrew: no, it’s, uh, it’s in the redwoods in Colorado or in California. I’m sorry. And it’s part of the Pacific crest trail. It’s part of the Pacific crest trail and, uh, John Meir, who was like an Explorer and all this stuff. He designated it. Um, it’s like 180 miles stretch of the Pacific crest trail. No, but he said it was the most beautiful chunk of the entire United States by his estimation.

Cause it’s like redwoods right next to the ocean with mountains, like just crazy, you know? So yeah. That’s like a one day goal. Like one day I want to go and either hike that in yeah. 

Josh: One through stretch. It’s going to take longer than one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You’re not going to do a hundred miles in it. 

Andrew: No, I mean, no, I mean 

Josh: like a down the road 

Andrew: goal, like maybe when I’m like in retirement or close to it, like, I want to take like two or three or four weeks or however long, 180 miles takes and like through hike it, 

Josh: you know, 

Andrew: be awesome.


Josh: Yeah. My, my cousin. Is, I think he, like, his goal was like 22 to 25 miles a day. 

Andrew: That’s intense 

Josh: too. He did the Pacific coast. Wow. So like Mexico to Canada, he did it in like six months or so. That’s amazing. And then he just tried to do the one through Colorado. So there’s some famous, really good, like Boulder to grand junction or somewhere out there.

Um, and they got hit with snow in the middle of. What did we get our, for snow? It was like August or something like that. 

Andrew: It’s crazy. 

Josh: But off the trail bow, they made most of the way. Wow. Yeah. That’s always my bloggers. You like what you walk for? How long in a day? Uh, no, thank you. That’s intense. Seems like a lot.

Yeah. To take it. Hey Andrew, I’m curious. Um, What, uh, what is the worst smell they deal with on a regular basis? 

Andrew: Oh, man. 

Josh: Um, this. 

Andrew: I have a very clear answer to this. So, you know, my wife is a little bit of a hippie. Um, so to save 

Josh: now she’s 100%. Yes. Not only is she a hippie, she’s convincing other people to be hippies and starting this whole home.

Boom. Booth 

Andrew: homebirth. Yeah. Yeah. We did a home birth for our first kid and now two of our mutual friends who both, by the way, thought 

Josh: we were crazy 

Andrew: at the time. They just had just had babies at home, both of them. 

Josh: And, uh, and 

Andrew: I’m like, you guys give us some credit at least, you know, but, uh, So we are doing cloth diapers, um, primarily.

So that means when you get pee in the diaper, you put it in a diaper, basically a trash can. That seals really well with this like liner in there that you can rewash. So, but it also means that when, when. There’s poop in the diaper. You have to spray that into the toilet. So I have a diaper sprayer on the back of my toilet, which could also 

Josh: what the heck is a diaper sprayer.

Andrew: You know, like the dish 

Josh: sprayer is like at the sink. That’s what I pictured 

Andrew: that only hangs on the back of the toilet and you pull it off and it just sprays called water so that you hold the diaper and the poop all goes into the toilet. So 

Josh: the worst 

Andrew: smell that I deal with is when the diaper trash can, is basically entirely full and I’m putting like the last diaper or two in there before.

Taking that out and washing it all. 

Josh: Is it like a game between you and your wife? Like who, who put the diaper to make it overflow, SLAs to clean it up? Kind of pushing it down. 

Andrew: Exactly dude. But like when that thing gets really full and you crack it just to throw a diaper in this smell of like, It’s putrid 

Josh: and it 

Andrew: just gets you for a split second.

And you’re like, Oh, this is bad. 

Josh: I think, yeah. I think old urine is a worst smell than 

Andrew: pudding, but when you make the 

Josh: old urine has a, has a punch 

Andrew: really does. But when you mix on your end, Uh, and old poop that’s when you get 

Josh: Oh, cause there’s still like poop on those 

Andrew: a little bit. Yeah. That’s the worst smell I should get.

Josh: You should get better poop sprayer, 

Andrew: dude. It doesn’t matter how good your sprayer 

Josh: that’s pretty, right. Yeah. 

Andrew: That’s my answer for sure. On that. Do you have one that comes to mind? The worst smell you deal with? 

Josh: Yeah, I don’t really deal with a lot of smell when you get, when 

Andrew: you get scoped under your contacts, is that the worst smell?

Josh: Oh yes. 100%. That would be the worst in the entire world. You would smell it all day. Um, I know, man, I’m really, after we had that conversation, I’m pretty like. I’m pretty keen to poop in general. I’m not a fan of it. So, uh, I’m a fan of doing, it feels accomplishing, but I’m not a fan of it being around any like, like my dog pooped in my house.

Oh no, that’s the worst day. Cause he’s uh, cause he’s yeah, cause he’s an asked her to, needs to be, be constantly. Um, she spent man, has he been deterred the last few days? Uh, But he didn’t like, he never, well, okay. To his defense, he probably came in to my office and was like, Hey dude, I gotta poop. And I was like, Hey Jack, how are you?

It didn’t even occur to me yet. Right. But he has this thing with our neighbor’s dogs now that if they’re out and they’re like aggressively barking, he’s out. He used to not care. Uh, and then I made the mistake and I bought one of those, like zappers for dogs, like audio snapper. And I think that’s where 

Andrew: did he get zapped?

Because they weren’t 

Josh: barking. Yeah. Well, no house, but I zapped them cause they were barking and then it doesn’t hurt them at all. They just, they don’t like it. So they go inside. Oh my gosh. And he was, and he was just around and he was very sensitive years. I think he’s part blind. Right. Um, now that I think about it and that’s why he has such good hearing, um, because I can walk into the room and he could stare at me and not realize it’s me and.

Um, but he pooped in my bedroom and like I was downstairs like in the kitchen and I could smell like there’s poop in my house. Oh, there is poop in my house. And it wasn’t horribly smelling poop, but man, I’m not just not a fan, not a fan of that poop man. 

Andrew: Fair. That’s fair. I mean, there’s, there’s a reason, you know, I don’t think many people are fans of the smell, but it’s pretty, uh, pretty your policy.

Josh: I know some people, some people are super into people. Yeah. 

Andrew: Nasty 

Josh: dude. Uh, here’s a question for you. Well, I asked you last time you could ask me this one and I got one more for you, but this one’s from the exposed categories. So shoot, you better be prepared for it. Okay. 

Andrew: I’m ready. 

Josh: Hit me with that. Oh no, I have to go.

You ask him. And then I was going to. Oh, okay. My bad, my 

Andrew: bad. I thought you were just doing, like being really suspenseful. 

Josh: You better be ready 

Andrew: and then you did it say anything 

Josh: well, you should be all right. 

Andrew: Um, Josh, what reality show would you sign up to go on? If you could, like you sign up and you know, you’re going to get accepted to one show, go beyond what would it be?

Josh: The apprentice would be cool if they put that back on TV. That’d be fun. That’s cool. 

Andrew: Yeah. With, with Trump as the host. 

Josh: Yeah. Not everyone can say you’ve been fired by the president, so that’s, what’s true. The apprentice would be cool. Yeah, that’d be cool again. And they only, they only film it for a week. 

Andrew: Oh, really?


Josh: I watched the documentary on, yeah, it’s just a week short and then they’d stretch it out for however many episodes. Nice. Uh, and they feel like twice a day. Sweet.

But, yeah, that’s probably the big one. Um, I realize we’ve already asked this question before on the podcast. I have to go with the man. 

Andrew: You were, you were queuing it up to be, be intense there and, uh, feel like you let me know. 

Josh: What’s the last big, what’s the last big thing you lied about, but I’m pretty sure we’ve asked that question.


Andrew: yeah. Huh. 

Josh: Uh, here’s another one. What is your instinctive reaction when someone or something hurts you? Oh, 

Andrew: are we talking physical pain? 

Josh: No. Any kind of thing? Give me an emotional, physical, mental. Spiritual. Huh? 

Andrew: So 

Josh: what other, other kinds of pains there are 

Andrew: the way you said it, someone or something hurts you?

So I’m going to go with physical pain, uh, as like, cause I immediately thought of, I do a lot of, you know, I’m, I’m always doing some sort of project, so I’m always building something or doing something. So I thought immediately of like, Hitting myself with an hammer on accident, like missing the nail and digging, you know, and like getting a finger or something.

Cause that’s happened many times. And, uh, Dude physical pain, uh, makes me mad. Like that’s like, I do not have a quick temper at all. Um, but when, when I get in physical pain unexpectedly like that, Like I was using the weed Wacker a while back and, and I was wearing sandals, like an idiot and, uh, instead of clothes, toe shoes, and it was like only one piece was on we’d record has two chords that go out and one is like ripped off and I like moved it cause I was going to go like refill the gas or something, but it was still spinning really fast and it smacked like a couple of my toes.

Oh, man, I just, I got mad. It just hurt. And it was not like there was no cut, you know, but just like really red lines across two or three of my toes. And yeah, I used some, uh, some potty language. Um, and 

Josh: yeah, my physical anger is, is, or physical hurt is definitely anger. Uh, it’s probably all anger, but like F word coming out of my mouth.

Like I’ve, I have a ladder in my bedroom right now because I’m just lazy to want to get an answer. And I’ve kicked it two nights in a row again, last night, same freaking pinky, like first. And I kicked it hard enough that I got pulled. 

Andrew: Oh, that’s a horrible. 

Josh: And then you hit those same towns. So on my sheets that there’s blood 

Andrew: man 

Josh: that I have to save till the next.

Last night. And it’s what I go to turn off the fricking link you would think I would learn adult. So I moved the damn thing out of my head out of my

Definitely hit it again tonight 

Andrew: in the middle of the Bay. 

Josh: It did. I tried to hide it there. I tried to cover it up a little bit. So when I walked, I wouldn’t see it and drill it again. It’s not even my ladder. That’s the worst part. It needs to go back to my parents. I’m pretty sure it’s their ladder. Cause I’ve never seen it before.

Yes. So I must have stole it when I was in the men’s fair. Uh, but yeah, that’s anger. Uh, but it’s always anger probably for me, if you hurt me or someone, I love it’s anger. And then it’s revenge. Like, that’s my instinctive. Like I’m going to get even, and I’m not a person that gets even like, you know, you’re wrong, equals my wrong.

I’m a big guy that like, it’s even, it’s funny. I was watching, I am a huge fan of the West side. Uh, love the West wing, fantastic show. I’ve watched it probably 15 times all the way through. Um, but there’s a he’s in the first season he just got into office. Uh, it wasn’t about the Westlands to the president of the United States and staff.

A president just gets office. First time. President was never in the military. They have a military incident, um, and he has to respond. Um, and the normal response is equal, equal response, um, to how you are harmed. Um, and they’re trying to determine what an equal responses is in his responses. That’s not going to change anything.

Um, let’s like up it. Like, I want it, I want it to hurt them deeply. Like, let’s just. Exceed, you know, make this, make this a big deal. Um, and that’s usually my response is like, I’m going to get, I’m going to get revenge, but I’m not going to get rid of that engine in the sense of like equal revenge. I’m going to get revenge in the sense of I’m going to edit this.

You bruised my pinky 

Andrew: toe. I will take 

Josh: now. That’s just, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s seems fair to me. Yeah, not that I act on that emotion, but that’s the first, that’s 

Andrew: what you want to do. I get it. Yeah. I get that dude. Speaking of. Jumping off 

Josh: talking about this week. Um, uh, 

Andrew: so we call this, we’re calling this, you can’t handle the truth.

And, uh, as you know, Josh, and as many of you know, if you’re listening to this, we’ve been working through first Corinthians 13, um, kind of one through eight, all the aspects of love, what is love. So what does it mean to love one another? What does it mean to love God? Um, so today, uh, we’re on verse six of first Corinthians.

So students a short one, and it just says, love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. Um, so this to me, and I think to you, when we’re preparing, we’re like, what exactly do we talk about? Because. Not delighting an evil seems to make sense, but rejoicing with the truth. Um, so I guess with that being said, what are your kind of first blush thoughts on this?

What does it mean to not delight in evil, but rejoices with 

Josh: the truth? I think the love conversation in general, there’s so much sacrifice that we have to function inside of, um, to love people. Well, like. We’ve got to put up with their crap, um, to an extent, you know, we’ve got to accept them as they are, where they’re at, um, in their maturity and their life with Jesus.

Um, just so we can love them to a better place. Uh, there’s so much that we have to give. Um, and oftentimes that feels unjust and not fair that I have to bend the knee, uh, for the sake of somebody else. And I think when we get to this first, um, this is where oftentimes Christians in general and when speaking in a big, broad brush general, um, this is their ammo back of where like, Oh, I have to love people.

Well, but when it comes to truth, I can be a total turd bag and I get to come at you once you say, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right. Like it’s a weapon at that point. Like truth is a weapon. I get to attack you with the truth because I have what’s right. And I have, what’s true to my side. So my actions and how I do it don’t really matter.

And this is where I’m bothered some with this first. I don’t think that’s what this person, I’m not in the context of the greater versus I think that’s just the VR. I just think that’s the part of the verse that we use to get out of the rest of the verses. Um, as long as something is evil, I’m allowed to do whatever I want.

Treat them any way I want. I don’t have to love them, but Jesus was very clear where it’s supposed to love R and B. Uh, that’s not the response. 

Andrew: Yeah, right. Um, 

Josh: so that’s not, that’s not the, that’s not what essentially this verse is saying. And I think that’s the pushback of it all because I think people so easily can jump to that place of Oh, truth matters more than anything.

No, no, it doesn’t. No, Jesus was very clear. Love matters more than anything. It was clear at the beginning of, of this chapter. Uh, But truth still plays a massive role in our lives and not delighting and evil still plays a massive role in your life. Um, and I think probably the best way to attack this, Andrew’s probably break it up.

Like, what is, how do we not delight in evil? Like, what does that look like? And then how do we rejoice in truth in this context of love? Because love hasn’t changed. Like love does not delight in evil, but rejoices in. Um, so how do you answer that question? What does it mean not to delight or sorry to, uh, 

Andrew: what does not delight in evil 

Josh: delight in evil?

Andrew: So that’s, that’s a good approach. That’s a good 

Josh: point. Interesting. Um, 

Andrew: yeah, it is. Uh, but, but the, as I think about these verses, you know, they’re all things that are either natural or not non-natural to do so. Love is patient love is kind. I don’t know that it’s natural to be patient and, and kind, um, it does not envy.

It does not boast. It is not proud. It’s easy to envy and it’s easy to boast and it’s easy to be proud. Um, does not dishonor others is not, self-seeking not easily anchored. Basically. All I’m trying to say is these are all things that have to be kind of called out explicitly to say, love. Looks like this and it doesn’t look like this, and it’s always kind of contrasted with like, here’s your more natural state.

Um, it looks, you know, that love doesn’t look like, you know, is, is kind of my point. So this, I, I don’t like the idea that I delight in evil, but, uh, in first Corinthians 13 verse six, it’s pretty explicit that love does not delight in evil. But rejoices with the truth. And if I’m reading this and the way that I’m reading the rest of these verses, that probably means that Andrew, uh, you’re probably quick to delight in evil and you might not rejoice with the truth, but that’s not what love does.

So, um, love does not delight in evil. Um, I. Let’s go back to that analogy of like, you, you bruised my toe and I’m going to cut off your thumbs like that. That’s maybe our natural response. And the Bible actually has a lot of things in it, especially in the old Testament kind of laws of like an eye for an eye tooth for tooth.

And then people being like, no, I’m not doing an eye for nine tooth for tooth. You hurt one of us and we’re going to hurt 10 of you. You know, like things S violence always escalates quickly. Um, so. That that like delighting in evil might look like being excited then about that, you know, or being, uh, being really stoked about that.

Like, yeah. I can’t wait for somebody to hurt me so I can hurt them way worse, you know? Or I can use it as a shield to say, well, they deserved it. Um, I delighting in evil. I don’t know. I, uh, I don’t like to think that I delight in things that are evil, but, um, but I am sinful. I am fallen. Um, I’m certainly not perfect.

So I have to think that at some point I, some points I do delight in things that are evil, even though I shouldn’t. So that’s my first take. What do you think on that? 

Josh: Yeah, I think that’s good. I think. 

Andrew: Um, 

Josh: I’m just looking at these other, um, translations and how others sticker. Um, mr. Eugene Peterson commentary, it’s this way.

So this doesn’t revel when others grovel, um, which is an interesting way to connect it. Um, the ESB puts it as does not rejoice at wrongdoing. Um, and I wonder, I wonder based off a Eugene’s interpretation and I’m trying to pull up other countries right now to look at it. But, um, I wonder if this delighting an evil piece, because this is all relationship role, right?

Like we’re not, we’re not removing relationship from these verses. Like those verses are all about loving one another well around us. Um, so if we don’t remove relationship with the services is how does this apply specifically to people? And I wonder if it is when people do wrong, don’t get excited about it.

Um, like don’t, don’t get in that place of like, Oh, I get to, I get to correct them. And we all do that, right? Like everybody wants to feel better than somebody else. Yes, that’s normal. So there should, there should be a place of like, if people have sinned and done wrong, I shouldn’t get excited that I get to play a part in correcting it.

Um, kind of going back to our conversation last week of the spectrum or the log in your own eye when they’re suspect another, like. My response. Should it be that are like, this is going to be fun because it’s not love for another, like, we’ve talked about this before, but this idea of sin, like citizen bad, because it’s just what God called sin sin as bad, because this is the things that destroy lives destroys our lives.

It destroys lives around us. Like that’s why God has called these things sin. Like, it’s not like God was just sitting around one day and he’s like, Hey Jesus. You think stealing should be a sin? Like if I took something from somebody else, you want to write that one down? Now it wasn’t just like off the cuff.

I’m just going to come up with things. Cause I think this is because I’m God and I get to do all this stuff. No, like sin has been called sin because these are the things that destroy. Like Jesus, you know, God loves us so much that he doesn’t want us to, to participate in sin because it causes destruction.

Um, and it hurts us. It hurts those around us. Um, so that’s why citizen. So when, when sin enters the picture delighting in an evil is, Oh, I get to, I get to point these things out to these people and show them that they’re they’re in the wrong. Well, that’s not love because love should be no, no, no, no. I don’t want them to continue to destroy their lives.

Like, I don’t want them to go down these roads anymore. Like it’s a place of, of deep care for somebody that I want to, to. Um, so when I approached sooner that way with people that I have very different approach than when I approach it from a place of not caring, I’m just correcting behavior. Um, if I’m correct behavior, I don’t give a shit how you feel about it.

You’re just going to change because that’s the right thing to do. But if it’s care for that person, I’m going to approach it differently. I’m going to show a deep level of care for that individual. So I’m making come to the place of, of understanding the destruction and hopefully make the change. But again, the changes, their decision.

If they don’t want to, then they don’t have to. Yeah, 

Andrew: I was listening. I’m not sure how this relates, but somehow my brain brought it up. Uh, I was listening to, um, James this morning as I made some pancakes. Um, and James is short, it’s like five chapters. So I put it on, um, audio and I don’t know. 15 minutes maybe.

And I, I listened to the, to the book of James and, um, the story, the thing that stood out of the whole book, it’s probably my favorite book of the Bible or one of my favorites. But the thing that stood out today was the, um, versus 

Josh: yes, A lot of scholars through the years have said, James should be a part of our Bible.


Andrew: Dang. That’s crazy. Um, I didn’t know that, but I, there’s a, there’s this a quick couple of lines in there, and it’s talking about these, these men who say, um, Basically they say, um, Hey, let’s go to this city. Um, and, and we’ll make a bunch of money and we’ll build bigger barns and fill them up and we’ll have plenty of grain and wine.

And, uh, and we’ll stay there for the next couple of years and we’ll just live a life of leisure. Um, and God kind of comes back to them and says, uh, you foolish, man. Like didn’t, you know, Uh, don’t, you know, that your breath is area, that your life is a breath and that you don’t know how much time you have in your, your goal in life should not be leisure and rest and, uh, you know, to, to just pamper yourself basically.

So I’m actually taking your life from you tonight. Like you’re done, you’re not going to go. You’re not going to make all this money. You’re not going to have all this rest and leisure. That’s only self-serving because you. Maybe if I extrapolate because you were off mission, you were not focused on making other people’s lives better.

You not, you’re not benefiting anybody except yourself and your wallet. So you were chasing that, but you didn’t know the clock was ticking on your life. So, uh, pulling the plug on that, but that popped out because like the, um, this delighted in evil, this, you know, uh, having a good time playing with fire, however you want to call it.

Um, That, that just kind of struck a chord, as I thought about just the book of James this morning, like this, this idea of like, love doesn’t delight in evil. It doesn’t just delight in the things that only benefit you. Maybe it doesn’t delight in the things that, um, That are only for you that are only for the purpose of making you happy or fat or full or whatever.

Like there’s, there’s a place for rest. There’s a place for good food. You and I it’s about to be Thanksgiving. And even though, yeah, we’re not traveling and having a big celebration, we’re going to need a lot of good food at home, you know? Um, hopefully you do too, but, um, But then that’s very different than just saying I’m going to live a life of gluttony because I love to eat good food.

You know, like I love to eat good food and drink good wine. So that’s all I’m going to do. I’m just going to eat, drink great wine. And I’m just going to eat great food. Like if that’s your purpose in life, that might be a form of delighting and evil. And, uh, and that’s probably not something that God wants for your life and probably doesn’t demonstrate love well, so, um, Yup.

Josh: Yeah. And if we kind of go down that path still, you couldn’t interpret the verse of just like, are you focusing on selfish things, things that benefit you, things that focus on you or are you trying to focus on kingdom things to benefit those around you? Like that’s the compare and contrast. I think that you could probably find them.

Yeah. This commentary, uh, I’ve been reading this guy for years, but, um, he’s just like the common man’s commentary, which makes it easy to read. Cause you read some older commentaries and there’s too many news and you get confused really easily. Um, when you have to interpret the commentary, that’s interpreting the scripture, it just gets it’s too much guys stop.

Uh, but for this first, uh, does not rejoice in inequity or in sin. Um, it’s he says, uh, It is willing. It is the willing to want the best for others and refuses to color things against others instead of rejoicing in truth. Um, love can always stand with truth and on truth because love is pure good and like truth, um, which is a better way to describe truth.

I think too, um, like I think too often, truth is that big, bad. Big brother, older dad, that’s going to punish you when you’re not standing in truth, but there’s, there’s pureness and there’s goodness inside of true. Yeah. Um, that we get to sit inside of. And I think that’s, that’s often missed, um, when truth enters the picture that we feel like we get to do whatever the heck we want, but yeah.

Now. Are willing to want the best for others and refuses. This kind of goes against the sin piece, right? Like, I don’t want you to live it sin because I know the destruction is going to cause. And can I just point out the destruction? Yeah. Um, in a kind caring, loving way because I want what’s best for you.

Okay. And I don’t think that in general, I don’t think that’s oftentimes how the church approaches sin. We approach sin of it’s. Black and white, you do it, or you don’t you’re bad if you do. You’re good. If you don’t, um, a moral standard and yes, there is moral ism inside of truth. Uh, but that’s not the goal.

The goal is no truth or sin causes destruction, and I don’t want you to be destroyed and I don’t want you to destroy people around you. Uh, and that’s why we, we dig into these things with one another. Um, and then we refuse to color things against others. So like, How often has the sin of somebody’s life, um, labeled them for life, right?

Like, Oh, that guy’s right. Oh yeah. Don’t don’t trust that guy. He’s had like six affairs. Um, and you’re like, no, he had one affair. He, he deeply regrets it. He’s done everything he can to fix it. Right. And he’s still with his wife being faithful. He’s not, you know, a horrible, horrible guy. That’s going to be a horrible guy.

The rest she went. I don’t know why we keep coming back to affairs. Um, I think last episode we talked about the first two, I’m not married, so, um, 

Andrew: But it 

Josh: can be anything. Um, this person is a drunk because he went to rehab at one point in his life. Right? No, it doesn’t mean like, can we paint people for what’s best for them?

And can we view what’s good inside of them rather than focusing all the things that are bad about them? Because the reality is going back to last week’s conversation, there was a plenty of bad about me. Uh, and I wouldn’t want them to label me in that way. I wouldn’t want them to say this is who this is.

No, I think there’s a level of humility of like, yeah, I could be called bad things maybe in the terms of the world, not as bad things as anyone else, but right. You give me the right circumstances. Right. It’s a possibility. Uh, so I think there’s just that piece of like, I want to see the best in people. Um, and there’s people like, it’s funny cause.

I’ve been on this journey or whatever, for eight months, a year of really trying to love people and love God. Well, and what does that mean? And. And this and that there’s individuals that love people really well, that used to bother the hell out of me. Um, and as I’ve journey down this road, just that eyeopening of like, Oh, that’s why, okay.

I get it. They’re not naive. They’re not stupid. They’re not, they see it. They’re just choosing to choose to see the best in people. And they’re taking that posture rather than, than a different point of view. Say, there’s 

Andrew: a strength in that. My natural there’s a like to. To look around and it’s not easy to look around 

Josh: life right now 

Andrew: and to say, well, COVID is happening.

Our economy’s bad, uh, presidential stuff has been rough on everybody. Like you, you couldn’t find a million reasons to be negative. And, and they’re probably justified, um, But that’s kind of a weak position, you know, like it takes no effort to be negative. It takes a lot of strength to be positive. And especially in those one-to-one relationships where you’re looking and you’re saying, well, this, the thing that this person does really bothers me, that bothers me.

That bothers me. It’s way easier to be negative, but to sit there and say, no, I’m going to, I’m going to love this person. Well, I’m going to demonstrate love. Well to them and I’m going to give them grace because I get grace all the time, uh, from the Lord, like to do that, I think it takes a lot of strength versus just saying I’m going to be negative or they’re just annoying.

There’s nothing good about them. Or like you were saying, they’re just a drunk or they just. All right. Had a bunch of affairs that are just sexually sinful, whatever, like the, to label people and label it and forget it kind of, um, versus to say, I’m going to pursue this relationship out of love. I’m going to pursue this person in love.

It takes a lot more strength to do the second one. Cause you’re eventually going to get hurt or you’re going to have people think you’re naive or think you’re crazy. Um, or think you’re dumb. I don’t know, like there’s a lot of things people think, but it takes strength. I think. 

Josh: No, that’s true. That’s good.

And, and I think we’d have a much better community around us if we chose to take that posture rather than the latter. Yeah. 

Andrew: Okay. I, I don’t know why we’re talking about affairs. I’ve never had an affair and I never intend to, I am married. I know you’re not married yet, but I hope one day you aren’t married and don’t have an affair, but, uh, but.

Just in the last couple of weeks, uh, another pastor, a really big name pastor in the U S kind of evangelical church, um, got fired from his church and, uh, got fired from the church he was leading and then, you know, came out the next few days later, he said on his Instagram that he had had a extra marital affair and, uh, Man.

I was, I was just thinking about that. The yesterday I’m feeling really sad, first of all, because it’s like this church had been growing and growing and influence in a really positive way, by my estimation, at least, um, Especially in COVID times where people were like, I don’t know what to watch. They were one of the top churches, like, well, I’m going to tune into this service and see what’s going on.

And it seemed like every time I watched them, uh, I was encouraged at a minimum, but. Um, was that Hillsong East coast? Uh, Carl Lynn’s like probably everybody listening to this knows that, but I don’t bring that up to trash him or compare myself and say I’m better. But when I think about that type of stuff, I’m like, it could have been that it was a one-time decision and that’s what led to that.

But I think the more realistic thing is that it was probably. Just like a hundred small decisions of like, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna tell anybody about this. I’m not gonna not going to give anybody real accountability in my life. I’m not going to tell anybody about that thing or this, this time, or I’m going to be secretive about my calendar here.

Or like it’s, it’s a hundred small choices that lead to one, one thing. And because of his kind of position of influence, it has this. This huge ripple effect far outside, just, um, his family, but like the, the sin that it just leads to death, man. And, uh, I don’t know. I. I’m hurting because I hurting over it because I feel like there’s, there might be thousands of people across the U S and maybe around the world who are just like, well, that was my one chance at church.

And it turns out I don’t want to follow that guy. So I’m done. Or, um, if, if this preacher can sit in than, than I, how could I ever be. Be better, you know, or whatever people, whatever you might think, whatever excuse comes up. Yeah. Yeah. 

Josh: But, but, and I think this is the issue. This is our 

Andrew: issue. It have been, it could’ve just as easily been me in a different way.

You know what I mean? Not 

Josh: necessarily in a fair, 

Andrew: just sin, like to, to look at it and stand on one side and delight in evil and point fingers and say, well, look at how bad that person is. Look how horrible that thing is. That’s 

Josh: easy. 

Andrew: That’s simple because you can look and you can mentally say, ah, never be me, but, uh, 

Josh: but to rejoice with the 

Andrew: truth and say, yeah, the truth is, uh, without the grace of God, that could be me really easily because I, I can cover things up.

I can manipulate. I don’t want to, maybe, maybe the central side of me wants to, but. I don’t know. I don’t bring that up to point fingers. I bring it up to say delighting and evil probably looks like pointing fingers and saying, look how awful horrible they are. Look how bad this church is. Look how bad that leadership is.

Look how they didn’t think about these systems. They didn’t do that. Like that’s just trashing somebody for no reason or trashing somebody for the reason to feel better might be another way that you delayed an eval. Like, 

Josh: so. Yup. Consider that if 

Andrew: that’s your first reaction. Um, I guess, 

Josh: yeah, that’s good. Um, and ensure there’s a, there’s an epidemic in the church and church leaders falling, but I think the epidemic is when we created ourselves, uh, like, man, there’s so many different pieces that play into it.

Um, one is, pastors are no different than you. Like, we’re all. You know, priests in the priesthood as followers of Jesus. So just because they’re the leaders in granted, yes, they carry more influence than most in your circles. I get that. I’m not, but when we put them on pedestals, well, they’re going to fall off a pedal shift.

It’s going to happen. We’re all human. We’re all going to sin their sins. That you’ve committed the, if they became public, because you had the influence. Sure. They’d be hyper embarrassing and would hurt a lot of people around me. But the benefit is you don’t have as big of influence. So not that big of a deal.

Um, I think the issue is we put so much focus on sinning less and less focus on loving well, and this is how we end up in this place that we so quickly can turn our backs on someone that has fallen. Um, and so quickly say, Oh, that’s evil and wrong. Um, and yes, I’m not dismissing the sin. The sin is evil.

It’s like, think of it from that dude’s perspective or. It’s from his wife’s perspective, like how much destruction of relationship, how much destruction of trust? Like there’s a lot of destruction that just like. Hurricane through there. Yeah. Um, and there’s going to be a lot of time before that destruction is mended and healed.

Thankfully, we serve a deeply loving God and a deeply loving savior. That’s going to walk with that man and his family each step of the way. And if they choose to continue to walk with Jesus, they’re going to see restoration. They’re going to see hope restore. They’re going to see trust rebuilt. Um, all those things are still a great possibility.

Yeah. But typically. Our response is the first part of that is we want to rejoice in the evil. We want to rejoice in what happened and, and, and take this guy down and he shouldn’t have another platform. He should you’ll feel all the wrath of what he has done. Yeah. Oh, I’m sorry, but you could be in the same boat and you had the same influence.

You’d be feeling the same thing. Yeah. Like you’re no better than this guy because he said, and I think that’s the part that we have to constantly remind themselves of. Um, I’m not better than him. He’s not better than me. I got my sin. He has his sin. We’re all in this boat together, but here’s the difference is we just love Jesus deeply.

We’re going to chase after Jesus, whole heartedly and in the midst of him reshaping and forming us and whose calls to be, we’re going to search us in less. Yeah. But that’s just the reality of it. Um, but since the apartment now we’ve said this before, like we’re not. We’re not safe centers, like since still a part of the equation here until Jesus comes back and we’re completely restored since still soon, still in charge is still in charge here on it’s still the default.

Um, but our saints. Yeah. We are saints. We are a new creation. We are different people and we do now have power over sin. Um, but that power comes from our relationship with Jesus, not by our willpower, what we’re capable of doing. And that’s where the other part of this is we get sucked into is we think that it’s all up to us.

Yeah. Well, I just have to conquer all these. Like you don’t have the power to like sin as too appetizing destruction tastes too to go good. Like, we don’t want to live in these places. We want to pursue Jesus and let him shake those things out of us, that we love the things that he loves, delighting and truth more than we do in the evils that we constantly are pulled towards on a regular basis.

Um, and we just want to help others around us. It’s the same thing, because if you’ve walked with truth long enough, Uh, it should feel like a delight. It should feel fun. It should feel light. Um, it should feel, you know, Jesus send it. My burden is, is life. Can I walk in that place where I get to experience that, but too often, if your Christianity feels like a burden, I have all these things.

I can’t do things. You’re not living Christianly. You’re living some moral religion where I just have to look good as a human being and do the right thing. Yeah. Well, it’s not relationship at that point. If it, if it feels like 

Andrew: some moral religion, that’s a good word, man. That’s sorry to interrupt you, but that’s a, that’s good.

And it’s easy to wind up living a moral religion because it’s like, 

Josh: it’s easy because we’re in control of this year. 

Andrew: You set the rules. 

Josh: You, you write the report card, right? 

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. 

Josh: If I, if I just act like a more moral person, I’m 100% in control of that. Um, so I feel safe. I feel comfort in that because I’m in control.

Um, now sin gets out of control in your life and now, so do you feel out of control, but at first, like that’s why we do it. Um, and this is kind of the pushback against it’s against James with, with some scholars throughout the ages is it seems to push workspace, religion and workspace, religion doesn’t work.

Um, that’s not what James is pushing. I’d argue against it, but there’s some that believe that 

Andrew: see why people say that it talks about both exist without works, being dead. And we’re quick to say no, no, no, not at all. I think it’s really is trying to balance, you know? Um, but anyway, 

Josh: yeah, it’s all moral standard is, is what James is trying to paint, but it’s, it’s not on your own.

Your own doing, it’s not like, so the other side of that, if it’s not in control, it’s in jesus’ control. Then the only thing I have control of is fostering relationship with Jesus. Well, that seems wishy-washy at best. Um, like there’s, what’s the fear? Like, what am I doing now? But as I walk with Jesus, like, yeah, sin becomes less of a thing in my life are sins that used to ravage my life.

That don’t ravage my life to just because not because of anything I’ve done, I didn’t have great. Strategies that I’ve put in place to conquer those things? No. Typically my strategies will work for like three months and then implode on themselves. And that was worse off than I was before I started these strategies.

Right. No walking with Jesus has graded such a power inside of my own life, but yet it’s not that these things are to patients they’re still present, but they don’t feel like temptations. Like they used to feel, it didn’t feel like I was fighting a losing battle. It’s just something I now notice. Um, But I’m delighting in good.

I’m delighting in what’s what’s right. I’m delighting what we call truth and there’s freedom in that truth. And we get to live inside of those things. I’m not causing harm and hurt to the people around me. I’m not, you know, I’m not causing destruction in a wake of destruction around them. Um, like I’m bringing good, I’m bringing truth and truth brings justice, which is restoration and healing.

Um, not just justice in the sense of God is judged, but just in the sense of like, there’s a. There’s a restoration behind it. When I leave a place, I should leave that place in a much better state, emotionally, physically, spiritually than I, than I, than I did when I showed up there in the first place. So I think that’s a good question that we can ask ourselves is like, here’s this environment they’re functions.

Maybe you’re a mom. You’re a stay at home mom. Um, because man, do we hit that 25 to 35 demographic? Really good. Yeah. On the female side, it’s mostly, they’re all from California. Uh, so we appreciate that. 

Andrew: Um, 

Josh: But, uh, like if that’s where you are with your kids, are you, are you leaving destruction? Are you leaving hope?

Are you leaving, um, awake of, of just things being torn apart? Um, or am I leaving awake of goodness and flourishing and, and freedom, all these words that, that. That the gospel brings into life. Um, you know, if you’re, if you’re on a team at work, like what are, what are those relationships look like? Um, do people not want to approach you to people wanting to avoid you?

Um, if, if they didn’t have to work for you or work with you, would they spend time with you? Like, that’s a really good question. If the answer is no, then you’re probably doing, you’re probably doing it. Sorry buddy, or, sorry, honey. Yeah, you’re probably an ass muncher or, sorry.

You’re probably an ass. You were on such a roll 

Andrew: and then just, uh,

Josh: Oh, we’ll leave it, keep it on it. Keep it on. That’s my headphone too. Yeah. Um, you’re probably an asshole and no one wants to be around you. Um, but if people are wanting to spend time with you outside of that context, then there’s probably something to yeah. You know, bringing life to those places, you know, I’m bringing truth to those places rather than destruction and delighting in evil.

Like, and I think the other side of this too, that, that we can look at is like, Uh, walking with Jesus and digging into this, the crap of our life, the sin of our life and, and letting him, you know, want to identify to deal with it three, uh, help us recover from it. Um, when he helps us do these things, like you’re just going to be like, you’re now going to function in more truth.

Not true. The sense of like black and white yes or no, but truth and sense of like, this is hope this is life giving. This is good. Um, you know, this is pure, this is, this is what life should feel like. Um, type of truth. Yeah. Um, and we live in that place thing, you know, you’re just going to bring more life to the things around you.

Like we’re going to see the John 10, 10 life more often, um, the at abundant life, a full life, um, because we’re, we’re. Choosing to rejoice in truth, rather than rejoice in sin and evil, the crap of our lives, right? I’m not going to sit and revel in it. I’m not going to keep focusing on it. I want it to be, I want it to be dealt with and we can move on from it.

So let me get Jesus into this equation and start having those conversations, um, because doing it on your own works for a short period of time, man, does it work for a short period of time? It feels like you’re making progress. Yeah. But it’s all about your own self and Christianity is not about yourself after, like, and, and that was the that’s the point Paul or sorry.

Uh, James was trying to make was no, when I’m walking with Jesus, when I’m in deep relationship with Jesus there’s fruit at work there’s of there’s things that I do. Yeah. There’s but that’s, that’s the. That’s a differential you have to make. It’s not, I do all these things to be good. And that’s where my faith comes from.

No, no, no. My faith and my relationship with Jesus says is the core is the piece and out of that, these things happen. Um, and I start to walk with them. 

Andrew: Yeah, that’s good, man. That’s all, that’s all really good. And, uh, I. Thinking about the contrasting, these two, the, um, delighting and evil and rejoicing in the truth.

Um, I think like we all have different levels of influence. Uh, whether it be a million people listen to what we’re saying or, or two or one really looks up to us. Like we all have some level of influence and, um, I think it’s all important. I don’t think you need to say because you have a big platform that influences a thousand people.

That’s more important, important than influencing too. Cause. Who’s to say, you know, God can say, but, but not us. Yeah. Um, so anyway, uh, when you, when you build this culture of rejoice or delighting an evil or being about evil, you know, um, that might look like revenge. It might look like a lot of things we’ve talked about, but, but when you, when you live in that, then you’re probably surrounding yourself with people who also do that, who also are about rejoicing and evil.

Um, and. The thing about that, like, uh, this, this world can be a dog eat dog world, you know, and, and if you’re going to be a part of that rat race, then you better be the strongest baddest, Munis rat, Munis dog ever. Uh, because, uh, eventually, uh, somebody’s going to knock you off, you know, uh, knock you off the top and, and there’ll be, there’ll be rejoicing and yeah.

The evil that they just created, uh, that’ll be in your life and, uh, it, and you build a culture of that. The more, the more you’re excited about evil, the more, um, people around you are too. Um, but the more you rejoice in the truth, the more you rejoice in things that honor God, the more you, you spend time.

On them. Um, then maybe you build a culture of people around you that are also about those things and, uh, and that want what’s best for each other. And want to be honest with each other and want to push each other towards God, rather than away from him. So, um, I don’t know, be careful of the culture you build, I guess, or be careful what you’re excited about.

Um, yeah, that’s what I’m trying to say. 

Josh: No, that’s good. That’s good. Um, so to love people, well, yes, yes. Truth matters a lot because truth is where we find hope. That’s where we find restoration. That’s where we find joy. So if I, all of these good things about our relationship with Jesus and when evil interests, the picture evil is destructive, evil wants to cause harm.

Uh, evil is, is in its essence, wants to kill steal and destroy from you, um, or you or from you. Um, So it’s, it’s, that’s the posture we’re taking. And if I chew and if I encounter someone that’s in the midst of evil, in the midst of sin, uh, my response shouldn’t be to delight in it, to get excited about it, to correct it.

Um, from the perspective of I get to call it out because I’m better than you, right. You’re in the wrong. Yeah. I’m better than you. And I would never do that. That’s so despicable and wrong. Um, but if it’s from the. Posture of Nina. No, I want to, I want, I want to love this person. Well, and I see the destruction this is causing and, um, I need to build relationship and good influence.

So I have voice, um, and I’m going to do all the work to do those things and I’m going to sacrifice, so that can happen. Um, and then we can deal with, with the things that are causing destruction around us. Um, and I think that’s the best posture we can take in, you know, evaluate the culture of your building around you.

Like Andrew said, like what. What is the wake behind you is the way freedom, hope purpose is the wig, um, burden. Um, Whatever the other words come with that, uh, shame. Oh, shame. Those are good. Yeah. We talked about shame at some point in the earlier episodes. If you want to go back and listen to it, um, shame is a man.

Shame is a beast and it can do a lot of damage in people’s lives. If we choose to utilize it and function inside of it, it’s extremely disruptive and sinful. Um, shame there’s should shame should not exist in the gospel, um, should not exist in the church. It’s a part of it. Um, guilt shit. She feel guilty when we do something wrong.

Um, but shame should not.  your, if that’s your Mo you’re in 100% wrong, I’m sorry. Uh, moms out there that like to throw shame at their daughters. Um, no offense, mom. We love you. Yeah. Dad’s just their shame in other ways. Right? When our boys can’t play sports, they’re not our boys anymore. There’s someone else’s boys, they’re your boys.

Um, our own issues. Uh, but yeah, I think, I think the posture is always humility. And we’ve talked about this before is, as we go through these things like humility is, is the piece that, that changes our perspective and changes our posture and how we react with people and interact with people. Like if I look at it and say, well, here’s Carl then switch.

The funny thing is I work for an organization that works directly with churches. All of our customers are churches. And I didn’t hear about this until I talked to a ministry buddy. No idea. Yeah. Which is great because when you’re in the midst of ministry every day, like this would probably be the hot button, like who wants to delight in evil and talk about it all the time.

Andrew: That’s not fun. 

Josh: Like it happened. Actions were taken. God’s going to walk with him. If he walks with God, let them deal with it. Not my problem, not something I want to talk about constantly. And maybe that’s another great example of delighting and eat or not delighting and eat. Like, are you talking like, is that your topic of conversation?

Andrew: Do you have six conversations around what today? Yeah. 

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. And you can, you can hide it inside of. Well, we want to make sure we avoid these things. We w what do we do? Like sure. You can hide it in there, but you’re still talking about the sin that happened, then it doesn’t matter anymore. It happened it’s in the past.

It doesn’t affect my life at all, or even my community’s life. So let’s just move on from him. Um, but now we like to, we’d like to hold onto those things and talk about them often and point them out on a regular basis, probably because it makes ourselves feel better of, like, I haven’t done that yet. Yet.

Right. Like that’s usually, so if we can posture ourselves with humility and look at everything of like, yeah, I could have done it. It’s 100% possible. I could have ended up where he ended up, um, or we’ll end up where he ended up. Um, if I’m not walking with Jesus seeking Jesus out and having deep conversations where Jesus is pulling the destructive things of, of my character, the destructive things of my behavior out, like what would it look like six months ago when Jesus is like, Hey Carl, like, like we’ve got to start looking at these things like these are, these are, these are destructive behaviors.

Um, and they’re probably gonna lead to some pretty destructive things. Like we got to deal with this stuff now. And man, when you’re in the midst of sin and it feels good. Uh, you like to flirt with that line and play like April. I feel good for Carl. And he’s like, yeah, I want to, you know, I want to play with you.

I hear you. God, I’m not going to do anything. Trust me. I’ve got this. And Jesus is like, trust me on God. 

Andrew: It was like, you were standing on railroad tracks coming. I’d see it 

Josh: to help you, buddy. Listen to me. Stand up. Hey, guess what I’m present when you finally make this decision right now and I’m present right now, six months before you make this a site.

I see it. All right. Like we miss that piece of like Jesus so deeply loves us that he doesn’t want us to see destruction a hundred percent. So why would he let you run down those roads? There’s going to be plenty of times where he’s like. Hey, Hey Andrew. Hey Josh. Listen to me. Yeah. And this is what’s going on.

I need you to, I need you to correct chorus. I need you to deal with some of these things that are going to lead to this place. I’m like, let’s deal with this. This past hurt let’s deal with these insecurities let’s deal with this pride. Let’s do whatever the issue is. And that leads us to the sentence. No, but yeah, well, we stopped walking with Jesus to that extent we miss on those cues and Jesus is like, Hey, this is what’s going on.

And this is what’s about to happen. I need you to listen to me now, like a good loving father. 

Andrew: Thanks for listening to our show. It really means a lot to us and we hope. That it helps bring you closer to your relationship with Jesus and with other people. 

Josh: And it also helps us out if you rate our podcast or leave us a review on whatever platform you’re listening on.

Go. So follow us on Instagram and the Facebook. Now sharing this with your friends. Isn’t just to get the word out of the podcast. We believe that we have the message of hope that’s found in the gospel of Jesus Christ and you share this has the ability to transform lives with people. 

Andrew: We want to hear from you.

You can email us at hello at this Jesus life. You can message us on Facebook and Instagram, or you can just visit But seriously, thanks for listening.

Get episodes and updates in your inbox.

Be the first to know about new episodes, download episode summaries and discussion questions, and stay in the loop about what’s coming up.

Tell Us More
Want to ask us a question, tell a story, or share what you’ve learned? Let our team know.
Listen to our episodes on your favorite service and devices. We exist to help you find freedom and be the place where hope lives.

Learn more About Us.