Episode No. 007

As followers of Jesus, we want to live in the freedom that Jesus has provided us. We decided to take on the topic of the Old and New Covenant and how they apply to our lives as Christians. It may not what you expected or maybe you completely agree. Let us dive into this topic that all of a sudden has become controversial. 


Verses – Hebrews 8:13. Verses – 1 Kings 19. Verses – Council at Jerusalem. Verses – John 10:10. Book – Irresistible


Josh: Good. How was your vacation?

Andrew: It was really good. It was really good. I got some good beach time in for the first time ever.

I did not get a sunburn

Josh: on vacation. Like

Andrew: I’m

Josh: normally the guy who comes back your wife’s a hippie and she doesn’t use her real sunscreen,

Andrew: especially because of that too. I normally get like fried the first day and then have two miserable days. And then I started enjoying the week.

Josh: That was a win. Yeah, burned.

And they were just miserable.

Andrew: Dude. Speaking of being miserable, my chickens are not miserable right now. I put some new logs from the woods in their chicken run area, and dude, they were just partying it up. When I went back there, I had to like go back to when it was dark, dark to get them inside.

Josh: They loves the logs, man.

Like what, what happens? Strange. There’s a picture of him, like holding up the log and they’re like,

Andrew: dude, they’re just climbing all over these logs and like searching for bugs and pulling the bark off. And I don’t know, they’re pretty dumb, pretty dumb animals. This is like,

Josh: I love that world changing. You notice how the chickens are doing

Andrew: too.

You asked how I’m doing. That’s one of the newest things in my life right now. It’s the chicken to

Josh: do. We’ve got a ton of great feedback back this week. I’ve been really encouraged from

Andrew: people actually like it. Which is shocking. Cause I like it.

Josh: I like it, but I’m surprised.

Andrew: I mean, I like it cause we have, I feel like we’re having fun during these conversations and then I listened to it.

I’m like, Hey, that’s one good point. That was solid.

Josh: That’s true. Yeah. So I’m glad other people do. There’s definitely been times I’ve listened back and you’re like, I don’t remember Andrew saying that during the podcast. That’s a really good

Andrew: same about you, man. Same about

Josh: you. It’s always like it’s cause you’re like paying attention to like what’s coming next.

Not that we have a real script, but we have a hotline kind of thing.

Andrew: And we have an outline. We have like, we have like seven, we have like seven sentences, dude.

Josh: Normally we have. Well, some sentences are intro.

Andrew: Okay. Copy paste. But do we have maybe

Josh: double,

Andrew: maybe double this dude, speaking of two verses I’m talking about two verses. No, we have a, we’re talking about the old Testament, new Testament or old covenant, new covenant today. And, uh, yeah. I don’t know exactly where that’s going to go,

Josh: but it’ll be fun.

Something you’ve thought to yourself listening, you know, I really want to learn about the old covenant in the new covenant and how they’re different. Right, right. But we thought it was super important. To cover the topic because I don’t think we have a clear view or our good theology around in general.

I’m not saying the church doesn’t, the church has a good view, but Christians in general, don’t carry a view of the old covenant, new covenant, how they’re different, what applies to you and what doesn’t apply to you as a follower of Jesus.

Andrew: Well, and even on top of that, dude, like you pick up the Bible and you’re like, this is one book.

I just start from the beginning and then you get like a few books in and you’re in all these laws and all these chronologies and all this stuff. And you’re like, You lost me after Genesis man. Like, I don’t know. Um, so I think it’s kind of important to like, have a, somewhat of a roadmap of like, what are, what are you reading?

What does it mean? What’s the context of that book or series of books that is half the Bible, you know? So

Josh: for me, that’s kind of foundational, so, Mmm. As, you know, if you’ve spent any time in the church, um, there’s multiple books inside of the Bible, 66 in the old, uh, I forgot off the top of my head. What’s

Andrew: this in the 42 42, you can keep going.

Josh: We’re not good Bible teachers. And especially when it comes to the new Testament, we should know. The books about

Andrew: side note, you’ve seen me. Okay. There’s 27 bucks in the new text mystery. You’ve seen me nice. I didn’t, I’m not a good Bible teacher,

Josh: so I don’t feel too bad about that with a guy. Once we just met each other and we’re like trying to lead this group of people, we’re still trying to figure each other out.

And when he starts in this long rant of like, you need to know the order of the books of the Bible, and you need to know where the verses are about certain things. I said, no, No, I don’t think any of that’s important. I need content of scripture. That’s really the important thing in the books. The Bible is absolutely useless if you don’t know the cost of those books, but

Andrew: Hey, let me, let me interrupt you again.

That’s a good point because the old Testament and a lot of the new Testament, people just heard it read or heard it told, you know, like it was more of an oral tradition and written down. And then sometimes the priests would breed it and teach out of it. But it’s not like everybody had a copy of says King James, you know, until just like,

Josh: I don’t know what 500 years ago.

And they might tell you that everybody did, but

Andrew: that’s right.

Josh: That’s right. I argue with the King James Guy, once about the Catholic monks, kind of preserving our Bible through the medieval ages. And he was like, that’s absolutely ridiculous. And you’re like, well, that’s true

in church, but we still have a lot of records because of the Catholic church. So you need to back off that to the Bible’s made up of multiple books, but it’s also made up of two different covenants now. In your Bible today, it’s probably called the old Testament in the new Testament that can be translated as well to old covenant new covenant.

And it can be confusing to start with the old covenant, because in all reality, that’s not where our story begins. Our story begins with, with Jesus and his death and resurrection on the cross. Like that’s the foundation of our faith. Um, and you’ve heard me say it on the podcast before. Like we don’t like.

We don’t worship scripture. We don’t worship the Bible. We don’t put the Bible on some alter and, and, and bow down and, and stand in awe of it. We worship the author of scripture, the God inspired it. Um, and I think that’s an important distinction to make. Because when we put our focus in on scripture, I think we missed the end goal of altogether.

We stop living out the great commandments as Jesus commanded us to. And we start focusing in on the weeds that were never designed to focus in on is first of all, there was at least

Andrew: I heard the term, not that long ago of Bible, lawyer. Um, that some Christians are just Bible lawyers and not Christ followers.

I was like, Ooh, that is good. Like, that’s a good term because yeah. The lawyers go into the minutia and that’s all they care about. Cause they’re like, no, no, you gotta let my person go because of this, you

Josh: know, to feel smarter than everybody else. When you walk into a room and you’re like, yeah, We’ve had this conversation before, not about the Bible, that conversation, they not had a friend tell me once, you know, I walk into rooms and often think to myself, I’m the smartest person in this room.

And I said, that’s crazy because I’ve generally never had that, but you are harder than me. So,

Andrew: Oh my gosh. I don’t know about any of that, but let me say. I did say that. And I, I was being honest with you when I said that, but that was in the context of

Josh: no, no, you

Andrew: can make fun of me. It’s all good. But that was in the midst of God telling me, Hey, don’t take my good ideas for as yours, you know, like don’t but it was a very gentle thing.

And that was a cool way. God spoke to me, but yeah, I need to be reminded of it.

Josh: I’m a pretty confident dude in general. Yeah, but not when it comes to being smart, never been my confidence. So when I’ve had great idea, I’ve never thought that was my grit, ideals of the grace of Jesus Christ. I came up with that, like this I’ve had

Andrew: a great idea.

I’ve typically just taken credit for it and been like, that was all me, but I’m learning, I’m learning from

Josh: it. You know? What’s your love language affirmation. I

Andrew: don’t know, man. Probably. Yeah. Probably words of affirmation. Yeah. I haven’t taken the test.

Josh: That’s not appropriate. Yeah. I told my boss physical touch.

Andrew: I need a shoulder pad. Every time you walk past and hug once

Josh: a day. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew: All right, dude. Old Testament, old covenant. So old covenant. Let me try this old covenant is basically it’s the first big chunk of the Bible. It’s actually more of the Bible, the new Testament. Um, but it’s the covenant that God made with Abraham.

And then the story

Josh: of.

Andrew: Israel and Abraham’s lineage kind of from, from that point, from the point of creation before Abraham Genesis one, you know, things are being made, created, including the earth, the sky, all the creatures. And then you end the old covenant, um, with kind of the starting of the story of Jesus.

Is that a decent explanation?

Josh: I think I’d add to it too. Like the old covenant is a history of Israel. I think that needs to be said because it follows. So the old covenant was also a covenant between God and a people. It wasn’t a covenant between God and the individual. It was a covenant between God and the state of Israel.

The people of Israel God’s chosen people. Why he chose Israel. We could go around and around. Um, I don’t think it really matters, but he did choose Israel. And then he kind of went through those generations. The old covenant was phenomenal. Well, well, beyond its years of what God established for, for religious law, civil law, um, you know, societal laws, like all of those things, um, extremely helpful.

Culture was drastically different during that time than it is now and for the last 2000 years. Um, so there was a shift in the midst of that. I think that’s important too, because in contrast the new, the new covenant, what we call the new Testament is a covenant between God and those that choose to follow Jesus.

Um, so it’s an individual. Covenant where the old covenant was a cause and effect relationship. If they did this, God would do this. If they didn’t do this, God had no obligation to do, to do what he said he was going to do. So you have this blessing and cursing. So we know that we’re in line with God. When our, when our countries is blessed, we know we’re being cursed by God.

We know we’re out of line with God’s sending against Scotland or countries being cursed for our people is probably a better way to say it. Um, I have a lot of struggles. With people, bringing some of those things over, like making America, you know, the country now that’s not biblical. There’s nothing in it.

There’s no covenant between, I don’t care if America was, or was not established on Christian values. It’s not a nation that God said you are going to be my nation. There’s no covenant. They’re not like there wasn’t Israel. And I think there’s a lot of things that we’d like to bring over. Um, but.

Andrew: It’s kind of pompous, uh, to, to be like, America is the new Israel.

God is for us. We do nothing wrong or, you know, like whatever, but God is for you. Uh, if you know, Jesus, if you know Christ, you follow him, like you’re a part of the kingdom, whether you’re in the Philippines or the U S or Ireland or wherever else, you know,

Josh: the old covenant was a covenant between God and God’s people, Israel.

Nope. It wasn’t for any other nation. It wasn’t for any other people. It was for Israel, the Jewish people are new covenants for both what we call Jews and Gentiles. Well, you know, those that God called his people and everybody else for everybody, anyone can enter into that covenant with Jesus and that covenant simply believing that he is who he said he was, he was the son of God.

He lived a perfect life. He died a sinner’s death on a cross and ration that death. Death three days later, conquering death. So we can do the same. I’m like that is the new covenant. And, um, the, the only piece of it is, do I believe that? And do I choose to follow that? And do I give my life to Jesus in the midst of that?

And if they do his piece of his yeah. My sins have been forgiven, done deal done. And over with, I now get to live as a member of the kingdom and which drastically changes my life from that point on, she just highlighted things changed. My perspective, changes the experiences that I have changed. All of those things like scripture calls us a new creation, right?

We’ve gone from old to new and like not the God change, but how God interacts with culture who is people’s humanity. Yeah, that drastically changed. And we even see this, like Jeremiah speaks to this, like there’s a new covenant coming. There’s something new on its way. Um, yeah, that is going to wipe out this old and the old was good for what it was, but it wasn’t perfect.

And the new one is going to be perfect. And then of course was, was Jesus that he was forecasting, but.

Andrew: Yeah, dude. And I kind of say, I’m glad we’re under the new covenant because I would come. And it was really just like, here’s the law. Um, here’s where you fall short of the law, AK where you sin, like the, the things you break in the law, whether you intend to, or don’t, those are sin.

Um, so the only way to get rid of that is to basically shed blood of something, like take your best goat. Your most expensive bird, your whatever, you know, an animal that’s kind of without blemish and sacrifice it to God. And let me say it, like, even that sounds crazy today to be like, I’m going to take this goat and slit his throat and then burn it and, you know, whatever.

Um, that sounds crazy. But many of the other nations were kinda like. Their religion involves lots of human sacrifice and things like that. So the God of Israel never, ever, um, Asked for human sacrifice to be completed. He did one says a kind of test of the will of Abraham, but, um, he didn’t go through with it.

He didn’t ask them to go through it. He stopped it. Um, and that kind of was a way he set himself apart as a different God than, than the gods of the day. So what you were saying of like, it was even advanced then, and it was good for law. Then, and now way different. It’s totally true. It’s just, we live in a different world.

So that seems crazy sacrificing animals, you know,

Josh: crazy too. Like, as you dig into the history during that time of the old covenant of the old Testament, um, Like there’s so many things that the people wanted that God , that God never wanted. Like, you look at the temple, God never planned to build the temple.

God never planned to have a King. Like he was going to be the King. He was going to live in a mobile tabernacle. Um, And, and the people around them didn’t have, like they had temples, not only did they have temples, they had images of their gods inside those temples. And, you know, Israel had a God that had no image.

So like when you got into what we call the Holy of Holies, um, kind of the place where God’s presence dwell, there was no iron statue. There’s no gold statue. There was nothing in there that. Defined God. Now there was a, chairman’s a hold the arc of the covenant, but yeah. Mmm. There was no imagery of God himself, which was drastically different than, than other religions around there.

Um, yeah, but it’s amazing how, how God is willing to change his plan for his people. Yeah. And he’s got he’s sovereign. He’s all knowing he’s in all time. He’s in every place at all times. Right? So there’s that piece where like, yes, we’re on a timeline. God’s not sure God knows how things are gonna play out.

But at the same time he functions inside of our timeline because that’s how we look at things. And in the midst of that, he’s making what we perceive as changes and what he perceived along as, as relationship or covenant. Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah. So one, one verse I thought of, as you were saying, that, um, is, and I Googled it.

I didn’t know this off the top of my head, but, um, it’s Matthew nine 13. It says, but go and learn what this means. I desire mercy, not sacrifice for, I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, um, And I think that’s a cool distinction because it it’s like I desire mercy,

Josh: like

Andrew: heart change, behavior change, not sacrifice, which is just like, I gotta go kill my favorite sheep

Josh: again,

Andrew: you know, because I broke one of the 10 commandments, but it’s like, I desire the heart shift and behavior shift and the mental shift.

Um, that is kind of living within this kingdom that maybe you can’t see, but you live in and you behave as, you know, you do the things that Jesus taught, rather than just following the laws that were written on the wall, you know, or whatever written around the doorposts of your, of your house. And. The tricky part about that is that if you read the old Testament, man, there’s a lot of powerful stuff in there.

Like there’s a lot of things that you’re like, wow, I got spoke to me through that today. Or the Holy spirit put that on my mind, or man that sermon about, you know, Zachariah or whoever, the old Testament that was powerful, you know? So, so it can be confusing cause it’s like, God’s still speaking through this thing, even though you’re in.

A new covenant, a new reality, like

Josh: you laid out. Well, that was the only thing that changed too, right? Like, like we had under old covenant God’s presence, dwelt in a physical place. It’s waltz inside of the Holy of Holies. Only very few people ever got to enter into that place throughout a lifetime. You as a regular Joe’s would never have been able to enter the Holy of Holies.

No, probably never even been able to enter in the tabernacle and maybe got lucky to get into, into the outer courts. Right. Right. Um, so there was this massive distance essentially between the average person and God himself, because the covenant was with a nation. God interacted with the leaders of that nation, the priests and the, um, the profits, like that’s, who got interacted with.

And what got ushered into the new, uh, into the new covenant was that relationship is no longer between a nation and God, it’s not between individuals. So now I have the ability I’m as crazy as it is to approach the throne of God and hear God speak directly to me. Like that’s the crazy part of it. All right.

Like, yeah. This relationship became personal. Now I genuinely have access to a Holy God that I would never have had access before the sacrifice of Jesus, which is like, kind of gives you chills at times. You’re like, Holy, what am I? This is what I really have access to. And you see this, that transition at the death of Jesus, right?

Like it says that the, the, the, the, um, The veil was torn. That’s talking about the veil that split the Holy of Holies from the holiest place that was ripped to signify that God’s presence now is going to dwell with God’s people through what we call the Holy spirit broke out.

Andrew: It was like, Like a zombie outbreak of God’s presence started, it started with one, one, a veil being torn and then it just spread real quick.

Josh: Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. Read it

Andrew: today. It seems fast. It

Josh: does. Yeah. It’s true. Well,

Andrew: wait, isn’t it. So my, my thought of why has always been like, That God’s covenant was with Israel, with the Jews. And my thought was always that, like, they had a while to hear the message, maybe not all of them, but, but that the message of Christ stayed in Israel for awhile.

Um, stayed in that those tribes, you know, so they had kind of like a. Like I ranked contracts as part of my job. Um, not all the time, but we put in like a first rate of refusal clause on almost every agreement we do, like, okay, I have the first, if we’re doing this this year, then next year I have the first chance to say no, before you offer it to anybody else, you know?

And I’ve always seen it kind of like that, of like, God was like, like, yeah, my original covenant was with you Israel. So I’m going to give you the first right of refusal on. Following Jesus before I spread it outside of that, you know? So it’s going to take awhile, it’s going to marinate and then it can go crazy.

We’ll send Paul out and just to get the word out.

Josh: And we see this throughout the profits, right? Like salvation was going to come from the Jews. Yeah, there was no doubt about that. Um, so that’s why all of the apostles until we got to Paul, but all the policies that walked with Jesus were Jews like, and Jesus was a Jew, excuse me.

Um, and that’s like, so that was part of that is fulfilling prophecy too. And what you’re talking about is like the persecution that showed up in Jerusalem because it was going to be only for the Jews. Like this might. Frustrates some people, but the Jewish people were highly racist. Um, that like not only were they racist, but like, to some extent, God developed, designed it that way.

Like, this is very much, we’re going to segregate ourselves from you and for good reasons, to some extent, especially in that time. Um, but like, Jews. Weren’t going to go out and talk to anyone that wasn’t a Jew like that wasn’t a thing we’ll even get back to, you know, our greatest commandments, right? Like those are repeats of old Testament commandments.

We find them Deuteronomy like Florida. Godly love your neighbor as yourself. Those are both in Deuteronomy. A neighbor is to find a Deuteronomy. A neighbor is defined as any other Jew. Hmm. So Jesus does. And he comes on the scene, like he takes that verse and then he gets asked, I think even in the next chapter, um,

Andrew: what’s the greatest commandment, right?


Josh: it’s not that it was who’s my neighbor. And then Jesus was under these parables, right? It, us, the parable of the good Samaritan. And then he goes on and on like that piece is like, know your neighbors, all those around you. And not only that, your neighbors, those enemies that you hate, you’re going to choose to love them.

Yeah, we can take this and completely rips it wide open where he’s like, that was the old, this is now the new and the newest better. The new was different and the newest freedom, like that’s the piece that I just, I love to love is like, there’s a fine that we now have access to under the new covenant. We never have act.

And not only that, there’s, there’s a. Relationship with Jesus. We’d never had access to, or a relationship with God that we never had access to. If the new covenant never showed up, um, you know, and we get into some. Sharp fill the waters at this point, as you start to make that shift, right from old covenant to talking about the new covenant, what’s different.

What’s going on. Um, you know, thank you Andy Stanley for putting out his book. And

now there’s, I will say this. 90% of, of Andy’s book. I don’t think you can argue a psychologically. If you sit down, you actually read it. Don’t read what other people are writing about it. But if you read it, I think 90% of you can’t argue, you feel logically 10%. You could argue, you can land either way.

That’s fine. Yeah, you can pick what side you’re going to be on or just with the book and move on. But I think there’s some great pieces inside of it that are extremely helpful for the Christian Church to move forward on that are super helpful. And this isn’t going to be a podcast about his book. His book came out last year.

It’s called

Andrew: we’d be way late if we

Josh: did. I don’t even know what it’s called.

Andrew: Irresistible

Josh: that’s right. Yeah. I recommend you read it, take it, take a step. Tell us what you think. Yeah,

Andrew: but that’s our mercy not sacrifice. Like I keep coming back to that and, and of, um, like it’s the heart shift. It’s mind shift. It’s it’s the way of living shifts and I don’t know the new covenant living under.

Okay. Even if you just had the sermon on the Mount Matthew five, six, and seven, if that’s okay. If you’re on a desert Island and you have a pamphlet called the sermon on the Mount, you didn’t know anything about the Bible, anything about God and you read that and you just decided, okay, I’m going to start living this way.

Um, maybe on a desert Island, isn’t the best example, but. He just didn’t have access to a smartphone and all that stuff

Josh: built around loving people. Yeah.

Andrew: You’d feel so lonely. Like I’m trying all these function, volleyballs and coconuts laying around. I’ll just paint faces on them. No, dude. I mean, if you just had the sermon on the Mount,

Josh: I

Andrew: feel like you could really live out a solid, uh, Jesus focused God honoring life.

And in the same way, if you just have the 10 commandments, I don’t know. I don’t know. They’re just don’t do this. They’re just don’t kill people. Don’t put other gods before me. Don’t have vitals. Don’t covet. It’s just don’ts. Whereas the sermon on the Mount is all. It takes it cranks about 30 notches on everything.

Josh: Yeah. You’ve heard this said yeah, well, it’s not gonna be that. Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. But I say a hundred times stronger than that. What is, what is the next thing? An eye for an eye or two for the tooth, but I say. What is it?

Josh: I can’t remember exactly, but he gets eventually gets into, you have to forgive your brother seven times seven

Andrew: times seven.

Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. And it puts it back on you, you know, because an eye for an eye for tooth is just, you punch me. I punch you.

Josh: What does a great commandment. The day that it existed. I can’t stress

Andrew: that like

Josh: during that time that Israel, the country, the people were being built in a kingdom was being established.

Like that was a great law.

Andrew: One to 10.

Josh: Yeah, but it’s no, it’s no longer like that. Like drastically shifted. Like there’s a new thing that’s been ushered in. Like I would go as far as, and I’ll get crucified for this statement, but I’d go as far as to say, there is nothing applicable from the old covenant to your life as a follower of Jesus.

Andrew: What do you mean by that? I mean, there’s

Josh: no commandments throughout the entire old Testament that apply to you as a follower of Jesus. Now I think the old covenant, the old Testament is great for inspiration. I think it’s great for understanding the character and who God is. I think it’s good for all those things, but from an application standpoint, I don’t think it’s applicable to us.

It’s like, it’s getting back to, like, you get into like the story of David and Goliath. David Goliath has nothing to do with you. Like you’re running up against a giant to put yourself in the stories. David is stupid at that. That’s a story about. David and God establishing his next King. It’s not about you.

And I think that’s important. So it’s like little things like that. Um, the old CA the, you know, the 10 commandments don’t apply to you right now. If you remove yourself from it and you look at just the new Testament, well, they do apply to you. Like Jesus takes those and ups them, right? Like don’t have adultery.

Jesus says, you look less than that. A woman that’s sin. I mean, you’ve seen it yourself. Like there’s pieces of it that we’ve taken to a whole nother level. We start to dig into Sabbath. Jesus says it’s okay. Is it okay for me to heal someone and do good on the Sabbath? Or is that simple? Well, old covenant would say that’s sinful Jesus saying it’s not sinful.

That’s the thing we’re supposed to do. Somebody need to rest. It’s important to, to live in, in rhythms. Um, But I can work on the Sabbath. I don’t have to take it. And that’s a, that’s a big tenant of the old covenant

before I get crucified. Let me read this verse. This is from, this is from the Hebrew writer and you, and I think you should read this whole chapter. I won’t for the sake of really keeping your attention

Andrew: come, you would lose me.

Josh: I lose you. I lose everyone listening, but it’s. Good portion of it’s just actually quoting Jeremiah, but this is Hebrews chapter eight, starting with verse 13.

Um, and, and this is simply says this by calling this covenant new, I was talking about the new Testament Matthew on, um, he has made the first one obsolete and obsolete and out dated soon disappear.

Andrew: Dang.

Josh: Good for a second, but like calling this covenant new, which means if you’re calling this covenant new, you’re calling the old one old and it’s not because of its date. It’s old because it’s in the past and no longer is applicable to us. Um, he made the new one or the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

You probably didn’t know that existed in your Bible. It’s there. I recommend read the whole chapter of, of, of Hebrews eight. We don’t know who wrote Hebrews eight. Some say Paul, because of parts of how it’s written, but Paul wasn’t, you know, reaching the, the Hebrew people. So it probably wasn’t all, some say it was a woman that wrote it, which would be great in terms of arguing against, uh, the position of women inside the church.

Uh, we don’t, we generally don’t know. We don’t know who wrote it.

Andrew: Okay, so, so that’s happening. Um, by calling this covenant new, he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear Hebrews eight, 13. Um, that’s not a cherry pick verse. Like you said, that’s in the context of what we’re discussing.

Josh: This is verse six of the same chapter, but in fact, the ministry Jesus has received. Period. Those as the covenant of which he is a mediator is superior to the old, since the new covenant is established on better promises. You have to remember that the old covenant was established on a promise to a man to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations.

It wasn’t established. Okay. The old covenant was established between a man in Jesus. Man was Abraham. That’d be the father of many nations. That’s what the promise was built on. Our promises have built on that. Jesus was the son of God that he died a sinner’s death that he Rose from that death. And now it gives you access to salvation, freedom, and hope.

And forgiveness. Don’t forget. So that’s a big one sometimes, but like that, that’s the piece of this, right? Like establishing better promises. And that’s his promise to you? You choose to follow me. You choose to believe that I am who I said I am. I did what I said I was going to do. I’m going to forgive you from your sins and give you, create you into a new creation.

Bring them into the kingdom and let you experience a life. Like you never thought you would

Andrew: experience here. Okay. I agree with everything you just said truly. Like, I, I think it’s spot on.

Josh: Um, but I got one, you got

Andrew: one, but here’s the thing. I think there’s still plenty of value in reading the old Testament and, and one.

So, as I was thinking about this episode, I was thinking about this discussion. Um, I was like, what the heck am I going to talk about? Because dude, to be honest, I read the new Testament way more than old Testament. I started listening

Josh: really. Wow.

Andrew: I didn’t know that,

Josh: but I like, well, granted, most people don’t read their Bibles, but those that knew the old Testament much, which would make sense, like it’s two thirds of your Bible.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, like I, so I dunno, it was probably three or four months ago. I started listening to the Bible. Yep. And I was just listen while I showered and got ready there or whatever, because I’m way more of an auditory. Learner than a visual learner. So I’ve just started listening and dude, I just finished, I think I’m, I’m into revelation.

I’m in like revelation four or five and I’ve missed plenty days in there, but anyway, um, I’ve been listening to it and listening to it and, and it’s been. Pretty good. You know, some days I tune out a lot of stuff some days I, um, really here’s something. And as I was thinking about this discussion, um, I thought about, um, this set of verses that, uh, comes out of, Mmm.

It comes out of first Kings 19, which I didn’t know I had to Google it cause I’m not a, I don’t have this thing memorized. Um, but it’s, it’s Elijah. And then it’s when the Lord appears to Elijah. Um, and I’ll give you the skinny version. It says, um, the Lord said to Elijah, uh, go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the Lord for the Lord is about to pass by.

Let me just stop for a second and say, Hey, the Lord is about to pass by. You better get outside. That’s cool statement that, go check it out. And then it goes then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered rocks before the Lord. But the Lord wasn’t in the wind. After the wind, there was an earthquake.

The Lord was not in the earthquake after the earthquake came a fire, but the Lord wasn’t in the fire. After the fire came a gentle whisper. When Elijah heard it, he pulled the cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave. That’s when God talked to him. So I say that because like the, the commandments, the laws of the old covenant, we don’t live under them.

But we referenced them. We use the concepts of them. Like the still small voice I think comes from that. At least when I think of it, that’s where it comes from. Maybe Samuel as well of like the whisper, the dream, you know, but. But I think there’s so much value in, in reading it, but you have to look at it through the lens of Jesus.

You can’t just be like, this is my Bible, just the old covenant, just the old Testament. Because if you do, you can go really judgemental places real quick. Oh, you can. You could read the stuff to the Jews about, Hey, don’t intermarry with those tribes and you could be like, yeah, don’t ever marry outside of your race.

You know, like you could, you could do that if you ignore the old or the new Testament. So, Mmm. So it’s like tricky balance, I guess.

Josh: And I would tell, like, if you’re a new believer, you’re, you’re just getting into this whole wall, following Jesus thing, like start with the new Testament, start with the gospel of John.

You kind of work your way through it before you go back to the old. So you have a good understanding of what this means. Like what is, what does it mean to follow Jesus and how does. Because what you’re describing, like that’s character of God, like, right, God God’s voice is in the whisper, but here’s the downside of those verses if you were still under that covenant, those verses, like, that’s not what you get to experience.

That’s what the prophet got to experience. Right. And that’s what the judge has got to experience

Andrew: incredibly rare person. Like one in a hundred years, got to experience.

Josh: Hmm. And what changed for us is now we get to experience those things as followers of Jesus. Like we get to have that level of intimacy with the creator of all the sacrifice of Jesus through the gift of the Holy spirit, to be able to hear it and experience, um, Those moments, those moments of just all and the other cool thing is like, yes, God is in the whisper, but God’s not passing by anymore.

Right. God lives inside of me inside of me. Like I get to experience him at any point that I choose to still myself and listen. And you know, when we talked about a few episodes ago, And hear what God has said. Like that’s, that’s the beauty of it. So yeah. There’s parts of it that we get to see God’s character.

There’s parts of it. They’re desperate, definitely inspirational in terms of like, yeah, this is what God’s done in the past. And God’s still working. It’s just not applicable to our lives. Like I don’t get to say that God’s going to destroy my enemies. Right. Because of what old Testament says now. There’s parts of the new Testament that speak to some of those things and I can hold onto those commands and those promises.

But. I think it’s just very, you gotta be really careful when we dive back into the old Testament of what we pull in and choose to follow. Because in this, you know, we picked one, one, one chapter out of the entire day. Cause we see this over and over again, or a new creation. We don’t put, you know, old wine in new wineskins things have changed.

We see the argument of the council of Jerusalem. Most of do they get circumcised, do they not and digging into that? And that’s a big deal for the Jews. That was a massive

Andrew: deal for this huge. Lucy. That was one of the biggest things that set them apart. You talked about being set apart as a people, not just inner, marrying, but circumcision were doing things a very certain way, set them apart in appearance, as well as, as a kind of culture, you know?

And there’s, there’s a lot of markers that I think Jesus. Yeah, I think. Are more intense than physical things like a circumcision, like, I don’t know, man, the entire sermon on the Mount is the antithesis of today’s like, what is normal? You know? Um, it’s like if it’s normal to go on Tinder, um, and try to, you know, hook up with somebody, Jesus says, um, No.

Like if you just have adultery in your mind, if you just have less full thoughts, you already committed adultery, you know? And it’s

Josh: like, Oh, that is the exact opposite where you’re supposed to swipe. When you,

Andrew: the second you think about opening. No, the second you think about opening that app. Cause you know, it’s purpose.

That’s when you committed adultery before you ever swipe right before you did, it’s like it makes it that much more intense. So anyway, um, I just feel like there’s the Christian culture, the Christ following life, um, should be marked by just this radical. Difference. Like, you’re, you’re just different because you’re following, you’re following a real God and you’re in, you’re doing so under, I don’t know, not the norms of the day.

Like Jesus died a long time ago, man. Like this stuff has been around a long time, but living it out is hard and it’s different, especially then today. So

Josh: it’s true. Well, it’s this whole thing that like, I would argue the new Testament commands on how we’re supposed to love people are. 10 times more difficult.

Yeah. Living the commands of the old covenant. Yes. There was a lot of commands. Um, so it had been difficult to just keep track of them all, but to live them was relatively, especially inside of the culture. It was relatively easy because everyone was doing it. The life that Jesus calling us to live and to love the way that Jesus called us to love, to sacrifice for our flipping enemies in a way that like, that’s the hard stuff.

Like I once heard a pastor, you know, when he talks to. Atheist, one of the questions he’d always ask is like, Hey, prove me wrong. Because like, if you can get me out of this, like a hundred percent, that sounds fantastic because how many times do I have to hold my mouth? Like holding my mouth shut because I don’t get to respond.

Like when you come attack me that I just gotta take the hit that I don’t get to come out and defense and I don’t get to like. I turned the cheek. Like we move on. Like I don’t get to attack as much as I want to attack on the inside. Like right now I have to hold all of that and manage all of that. Prove me wrong.

So I don’t have to follow this Jesus guy, then we’ll be all set. Like that’s the, that’s the truth, the new Testament, like the level that Jesus raised things too. Like it’s really, you look at marriage like Jesus went. Went from that the man got to divorce his wife for any reason to know this is a, this is a commitment that you’re making and it’s a lifelong commitment.

You’re not out until you both die. That’s how this works. That’s how we love each other. Well, we submit to one another, we love one another. Um, and we do what’s best for one another. Constantly is that not exhausting and tiring? Like, like, like what Jesus is asking us to do is like 10 times more difficult.

Um, but that’s how we make impact. That’s how we make a difference. That’s how we get to live life full of joy and, and hope. And, and, and freedom is when we live inside of that covenant, we live inside of the freedom that Jesus provides us and don’t go back. Like we see this throughout. I don’t have the verses up.

We can post them on the website. We don’t go to our website, this Jesus’ life podcast.com, but

it’s a post just want to call it. So I got stuck, uh, uh, but we’ll post it there just versus on like, you go back to the old covenant, you take any part of it, then you’re going to take all of it. That’s how this works. You don’t, you don’t get to find freedom if you’re going back and pulling just bits and pieces from it.

And now you’ve got to, you got it. Carry the weight of it all at that point. Okay.

Andrew: Let me interrupt you. As, as you said that I thought about, okay, dude, every app you download every, every electric or electronic email service, you sign up for every website, you jump on, you submit to like an old covenant. Like you submit to here’s the 30 pages of stuff.

You’re never going to read that, that, that you could be held responsible for that you, that gives us outs on and you just click. Yeah. Give me that new version of YouTube. Give me that new version of, you know, iTunes, whatever it is. Um, Hm. Like that’s the old covenant thinking where it’s just like,

Josh: went along for a while.

The iTunes agreement said they got to take your soul.

Andrew: I remember that, which it might have, who knows? I didn’t read it, nobody read it. Um, but that’s like, that is, that’s a, a decent example of old covenant, but granted it’s not between God and man, you know, it’s like, It’s a little different it’s between corporation and user, but Mmm.

But it’s like, if you do this. We will Sue you if you do this, uh, whatever can terminate your use, you know, it’s, it’s that one to one, it’s the legal contract and it’s way too much to carry. It’s like way too much. Like dude, if I read every app or agreement, every update agreement, every email, subscription agreement, all of that, man, I would have no time left in my day.

Do you know, I couldn’t even think about, um, and this is switching, you know, living a life focused on Jesus, focused on following God. If I had 10,000 pages of 10 million pages or whatever of just do this and I’ll do this, don’t do this and I’ll do this, do this, and you’re wrong, do this. And I’m good. Do this in your bed.

You know, like, You just, you don’t have time for it. It’s not practical. Um, and it’s just filled with figure out how to walk this line so that you can kind of get there. You know, it’s not, it’s not filled with grace. There’s no grace in it and it’s just, Hey, if you put out your hand, I’m going to slap you.

That’s it. You do this, I’m going to slap you. Do you do that? You’re dead. You do that. You’re dead. Don’t do. It’s not a trend in the kingdom. Yeah, that’s what I’m

Josh: dressing. The nuke new Testament is if I’ve decided to follow Jesus, I’ve given my life to Christ. I’ve recognized who he was, what he did. Um, when I sin, after that point, I’m forgiven.

No questions asked. Okay. Like Jesus’ blood was sufficient to forgive me of those sins. When I stand before God, you know, God says, well done, good and faithful servant, a man, like, that’s great. We don’t deserve it. Like, you know, we see this throughout the pistols, like, like God loved us. That was it. What is it?


Andrew: why you were still centers?

Josh: Yeah. While you were still sinners Christ died for us or, or John first, John unpacks, like John three 16 essentially kind of presents it in a longer way or first John four 10. This is love. Not that, not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his son as the  as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

That’s it Don over with clean slate. Now, if I send after that inside of this life of their effects, that’s an absolutely 100% and I have to deal with those. I have to confess those and, and clean, clean those things. But from a salvation standpoint and 100% taking care of Jesus died for my sins done and over with.

So yeah, we take this to the extreme. I give my life to Jesus. I kill a man. Well, murder is a sin. We see that in the new Testament as well. Like that’s not loving my neighbor if I’m killing my neighbor. I’m sorry. Not only that, according to Jesus, if I have anger in my heart, I’ve already killed that man. So gotta deal with that.

Andrew: He might as well do it if you already thought it right. Is that what you’re saying? It’s

Josh: a way to look at it. That person. Yeah, entering into heaven. Is that person going to spend their eternity after death with God himself? 100%. The point of salvation is the point of salvation and nothing changes because I’m not powerful enough.

My sins not power enough, powerful enough to overcome it. Like Jesus, his sacrifice is beyond more powerful than what happened. I’m like, that’s the beauty of the new covenant. Like that’s the freedom that we get to live in. Jesus’s um, nobody gets to tell me who I am, that isn’t Jesus, nobody gets to tell me that, Oh, you’re useless.

You’re waste your center. Like you’re done. And over with, you’re never going to amount. That’s done in a, like, we talked about shame already, right? Like, we’ve talked about that episode. Like all that’s gone, like I’m forgiven. Yeah. I’m Jesus. I am 100% sealed by the blood of Christ, meaning I’m set. So tactically, could I turn and just do whatever the heck I want the rest of my life.

Sure. To some extent, but did you really love Jesus at the get go? Like that’s what we’re going to get into, right. Um, you know, it was pretty clear if you’re, you know, if you love me, you’re going to keep my commands and his commands were love the Lord, the God with all your heart, with our mind and love your neighbor as yourself.

Andrew: Okay. I had a theology. I, I told you before I took theology one and, uh, I had this great professor that, um, that hit this

Josh: home,

Andrew: dude. I’m sure I heard theology too, but. I only made theology one, no theology. One. I had this awesome professor, dr. Bounds,

Josh: that church named

Andrew: bathroom. No, no. That was Wilbur Williams.

That, that, no, that was not, no, this was dr. Browns and, uh, dude, he is. So in regards to what you were just saying, it was like, I remember he taught on the verses that Paul wrote of like, Okay. If grace is so sufficient, should I just send an ask for forgiveness? Should I just send all the more, because it’s more fun and just ask for

Josh: forgiveness

Andrew: and dr.

Browns. Yeah, he was, he was very blunt. Our compounds would always be like, may it never be, you know, like he would yell that Mary had never be that you said, you know, more. I just remember the first part of what he said, but. But that hammered away in the like, no, like it’s not. It’s not about the rules. It’s not about you give a dollar, you can a dollars worth it’s about

Josh: like change.

Andrew: Give some effort, you give some effort or you choose to not give effort. And then you’re still in this covenant relationship of great. Where you’re like, dude, I don’t deserve that. I don’t deserve you too. Forgive me. I don’t deserve you to call me one of your sons or daughters. You know, not that Jesus calls me a daughter, but

Josh: Oh,

Andrew: I don’t, I don’t deserve to be family, uh, to you.

Um, and in this new covenant,

Josh: but

Andrew: I am, um, so. I’m going to try to live kind of this higher calling. I’m going to try to live in the kingdom way. I’m going to try to demonstrate that in my everyday life. And I hope that marks me with a radical difference. In some ways. I hope that if somebody who didn’t know anything about Jesus, anything about the new Testament, anything about the Bible.

I hope that if they looked in my life for a week, Like a Truman show, you know, they just watched it

Josh: unfold day’s day.

Andrew: Yeah, I totally do. But I hope if somebody watched that, they’d be like how he’s trying. You know, not, not like, wow that guy’s got it down. Cause I don’t, but I hope they’d be like, he’s trying, he’s trying to live out this stuff.

He’s trying to live up. The sermon on the mountain is trying to live out all these ideas. Um, all these teachings taught God, not just, he’s trying to check the boxes of like. Okay. I didn’t, I didn’t kill somebody today. Sweet. I didn’t do adultery. Sweet. I’m good. I didn’t steal somebody’s sheep. I’m good. You know, like, but just he’s trying to live it out.

And I feel like that, I dunno, man. It’s, there’s a lot of places that you, people can grow up kind of under this judgment

Josh: of

Andrew: like, Did you do these three things and then you do them perfectly. And if not, You should go repent and you are bad and you are not forgiven. Like, I think we’re really good at eliminating grace from, from the gospel.

We’re really good at taking it away. Um, and not applying it, you know, preaching almost against grace and grace is man, if you haven’t read Brennan, Manning’s the ragamuffin gospel. Um, he was an alcoholic who became a monk. And just, I’m an awesome thinker, you know, um, he turned away from drinking and turned towards God and just his whole message was great.

The radical, ridiculous over abundant grace. That is to be in relationship with God. Yeah. Um, and anyway, man, it’s a, that’s kind of a tangent, but Mmm.

Josh: Like we don’t like, we don’t live by rule of listen do’s and don’ts, but we also don’t want to find ourselves inside of sin because sin leads to destruction. And why would you want to go down those roads? Like, like Jesus didn’t. Give us these commands and say, Hey, avoid these things for the, for the fun of it.

Like it wasn’t this, he wasn’t trying to build a society. And that’s why he gave us commands to use these commands because he knew these are the things that are going to destroy you as you continue down them. So don’t go down. Go from a selfish standpoint, like you don’t want to be a straw. You don’t want to see your life completely implode on itself.

Then, then make sure that you avoid those, uh, those things that we call sin, because those are the things that are going to take you down those roads and are going to destroy those things. And the other side of it is like, there’s this full life that Jesus has for us, this life of hope and excitement and a future.

Like. You know, the way that I used to say it, as I was preaching all the time was like, I want to get to the end of my life and say, man, geez, what a ride? The place you took me to, the people you invest in, the things that you want me to do. I never thought any of that was possible. Like we don’t get to that life and living in a way.

That’s avoiding sin as best as we possibly can. And when we don’t, Jesus is right there in the moment ready to forgive. Like there’s, it’s all taken care of. Like when you, can we talk about getting into confession and the importance of it in this life, but from the, for the next life. Purpose since taken care of from a follower of Jesus, it’s taken care of like when Paul says, should we keep on sending his answer was a simple, no exclamation point.

Like, absolutely not. Because this is what it leads to. It leads to your destruction,

Andrew: never been

Josh: to this place where you should, like, why would you want to go down those roads? So you don’t get to experience the full life that Jesus promised in John 10, 10. Like, that’s what we’re chasing. Like I want to have a life that’s full of love.

I want my life to be marked by, by love. I mean, you look at people out there that love God and love people. So well, like I might’ve said some podcasts for, I don’t remember, but like Francis Chan for me is someone that just loves God extremely well. Bob Goff is someone for me that loves. People extremely well, I’m an example of like, here’s how I want to love people.

Here’s how I want to love God. I want to be infatuated with God. Um, but kind of getting back into the old covenant, new covenant stuff. And, and I think why it’s important is for me, at least, Are our salvation, our faith isn’t built on the words recorded in scripture. In all honesty, we didn’t really have our Bible to what, 400 years, at least Canada after.

And for a good portion of that, the Bible wasn’t available. It was oral tradition still was what Paul said. And, and the reason the letters that we have today are. The Canon was a good portion of that was because these were the accepted words of God. Let me just

Andrew: let me interject with the printing press, which made the Bible widely available to most people, dude, that was invented in 1440.

So 1,440 years of just of mainly hearing a priest or a yeah, or a pastor,

Josh: I guess.

Andrew: Yeah, that whole time of just, you are hearing it through pastor or priest, somebody know you don’t have a copy at your home. You can’t read it at home mostly, you know, unless you’re kind of on the wealthy end. Mmm. So how much of that was like twisted and changed and how much was not said of the gray side and of the live this way side and how much of the.

10 commandments was like enforced in that time so that you didn’t see Jesus

Josh: go back to the early church. And, um, like as, as they’re teaching, as Paul’s moving from, from people group to people group, we call church to church and teaching the ways of Jesus and preaching the gospel over and over again. So people can come to know Jesus, like even during that time where you have access to.

The written scripture, like, like what was the foundation of their faith? Well, the foundation with their faith was the death and resurrection of Jesus. Like I follow Jesus because. Well, he said he was God, he lived a perfect life and he did what he said he was going to do. He died on a cross for my sins, and then he raised a conquered death.

Like that’s the foundation of our faith. And somewhere along the journey of, of Christianity, the Bible has become the foundation of my faith and it’s not right. And we put our faith in the Bible. And I think this is why it’s important for, for Christians today. Um, especially for young Christians, um, Like age-wise is as they kind of come out of their parents’ home, like, like if your foundation is the Bible, while you get to college and that world religions teacher just destroys you in the first week that you’re in there and you don’t know what to do because your foundation was the Bible and he just destroyed the credibility of the Bible because.

You just don’t know enough now. I’m not saying that’s not defendable. I think the old Testament creation, it’s all defendable. That’s not the issue,

Andrew: but made to feel dumb in that moment, you’re made to feel like, wow, I was standing on house of cards

Josh: and that poor college student doesn’t know how to defend it.

He was just giving me the bare minimum. So he’s like, well, what’s going on? But. If his foundation was built in the death, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. When you start to attack creation, you start to attack the story of the flood. Now you’re sending us like, Oh, that’s so interesting. That’s that’s really crazy.

And now you’re just like, are you okay? Like, I know you’re a Christian, like, are, are you okay with all this? Like, and you’re like, yeah. I just find it really interesting. I don’t really, really know what you’re saying. It’s different than anything I’ve ever heard before. I’m like, well, like, does that, does that affect your faith?

Oh, no. Like it doesn’t affect my faith, like follow Jesus because he died and Rose again, like he did what he said he was gonna do it. If you gave me for my sins. Right. That’s my faith. Yeah, Bible’s a massive piece of that because it gives us the foundation to some extent of what was recorded by the eyewitnesses of Jesus.

Um, so I get to see those things, but it’s not, uh, yeah, the found like the ultimate foundation in the second, we created that, like now you have all these kids are like, well, wait a second. Like. Nope. Now the Bible is completely wrong. What’s not, you don’t know enough, but so many people are walking away from the faith for, for reasons they shouldn’t be for reasons that aren’t new covenant reasons.

Andrew: Yeah. And walking away from the faith, walking away from. I just, I sound so churchy and sound. I don’t

Josh: want to,

Andrew: I don’t want to just appeal to people who are like in the church, their whole life, but if, if you hear one Bible verse and then you live your life, you’re going to see things that are. Different than that.

You’re going to see things that contradict that like, um, who is your neighbor? You know? Um, it’s the Samaritan, it’s the one everybody passed by. Like you referenced earlier, you know, it’s that, it’s the cast is the group that nobody likes. Um, okay. So go and live. Like that go and live like the, the person who picks that person up, puts them on the donkey.

Um, take some to him in it, gets them in the medical care, prepays their bills and says, dude, invoice me later. If there’s more bills, I want them to be well, you know, it’s, it’s that, that is a beautiful story. That is a beautiful concept. And if you live that out, Man, you’re never going to regret it. You’re never going to regret a single piece of that, and you’re not going to have a world lit professor undermine and destroy that.

You’re going to say. Okay. How’s your home life. Are you treating your, are you treating your neighbor? Well, the person you don’t like the person that’s on that, um, outcast class that you want to walk past the homeless dude on the corner, the, um, The Trump supporter, the black lives matter, um, crate advocate.

Who’s like screaming at you. The Trump’s supporters screaming at you, same thing,

Josh: you know, the, uh,

Andrew: the person you least want to be with is that your neighbor are, are you looking at them and saying, I want to care for you. I want to do the thing you need. You know, cause I see, I see your soul a little bit. I see that you’re yelling out of, out of anger, out of disappointment or rage out of maybe out of taking this whole space that says, I need Jesus.

I need a God. And, and you’re replacing it with the movement of any type. Mmm. And you’re saying that’s my God. No. Do you look at that person? Even if they. 100% are, if it’s transplant matter, if it’s that pedophiles should have more rights, whatever it is, the thing that you’re most against. Can you look at that person like Jesus would and be like, yeah, I see you.

Yeah. I want to forgive you. I want you to walk in the kingdom way. I want to redeem all the things that are broken in your life. Um, because that’s the, that’s the crazy call of the new covenant of just like radical different, you know, everything that’s broken is going to be restored in the, in the new, new covenant.

And by the way, it doesn’t leave out like. It doesn’t say everything is going to be restorative. It says that the people that follow Jesus are going to be restored and that’s not the rate. That’s not perfect language, but still kind of harsh in that. It’s not just like eye for eye tooth for tooth it’s like follow Jesus or don’t.

Like I’m the sword that splits. I’m a double sided sword that cuts in the marrow, you know, like it’s and that, then it puts the responsibility on us of Christ, followers of light. You gotta to tell people about this. You can’t just shut up and say nothing. You can’t just quietly live your life because more people need to know because people don’t know a lot of people don’t know.

Josh: So yeah. So let’s, let’s end this with like, What is some of our thinking today that’s old covenant thinking compared to how we should be thinking of new covenant thinking. I’ll go first because I’m dropping the question. If you’ve done

them. Yeah, his old covenant thinking if I could declare them the enemy, uh, that’s old covenant thinking because I don’t necessarily get to declare it. Maybe I can call you the enemy, but I get to treat you like the enemy anymore. Like, I may completely disagree with you, but Jesus died for you. And because of that, I have to treat you in a certain way.

I have to sacrifice for you. I have to love, you have to put your needs before myself, as Jesus said, if you ask me, you know, to, to walk with you one mile, I’m going to walk with you too. That’s the life we’re called to live. So creating this us versus them mentality is old covenant thinking. Um, and I think it’s dangerous.


Andrew: Yeah. This may sound very unoriginal,

Josh: but

Andrew: us versus them just in the, in the moment we’re in. Mmm man, I think us versus them black versus white Democrat versus Republican man versus woman. All of that. It is a, it’s not what Jesus plant. Jesus, not what he planned. I say that wrong. It’s not, it’s not anti plan.

It’s it’s not the way he said you should live. Mmm. Because. We as Christ followers are supposed to be marked radical, acceptance and radical honesty of like, yeah, you messed up. Yeah. You’re my enemy. You know, like you were talking about earlier, do you welcome your enemy? Do you pray for those who persecute you?

Do you pray for the people who. Killed somebody, you know, for being a Christ follower. Do you pray for them? Do you want them to be a Christ follower? I don’t know if there’s a lot of days. I don’t.  there’s there’s a lot of times when I think Mmm. I think that the people that are just the antithesis of the way I want to live my life, I’m like, yeah, it’d be, it’d be nice to quietly.

Sit back and be like, I’m not going to say anything, not going to do anything. Hope nobody does. He’ll be judged. I’ll be judged. That’s fine. You know? And there’s like this pride in that whole thing of like, I deserve it. They don’t, I deserve to know Jesus. They don’t truth. Be told. I don’t. They do, you know, it’s like, My son is no Mo no different than theirs.

And, uh, sensei separates us from God, but Jesus came as the connector. You know what I mean? Like screwing two electric wires together. Um, you know, you have connection and, uh, I don’t know. Jesus came to radically transfer our transform this whole thing, um, to say it used to be do’s and don’ts. Now here’s what to do.

Here’s here’s the concepts to live by. Here’s the way to live. And by the way, here’s a lot of grace for when you mess up because you’re going to mess up. Um, so follow me, you know, my, my yoke is easy and my burden is light, but it’s still a yoke. It’s still a big shaft around your shoulders. It’s still a thing to carry and pull.

It’s not easy, but, but it’s light compared to Mmm. Carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders of

Josh: the beautiful, yeah. The beautiful thing of, of that. As long as I love people, it gets easier to love people. Right. It gets easier to love my neighbor. As I love God, it gets easier to love God because I’m in closer relationship and intimacy with God.

Like I just think like, man, if we could live out some of these verses, um, the radical change that could happen to those around us, like I think of, of, um, um, Jesus words. I can’t remember where it’s at, but essentially like it’s it’s um, Oh, everyone will know that you’re my disciples. If you love one another, like it’s by our love that we find our identity, like, that’s the thing that makes us different.

And if we choose to live inside of that, man, what difference we can make? Like, if we’re not drawing all these lines in the sand, like it’s our unity that, that holds us together and yeah. And can we agree on the things that matter most? And you look at the Protestant church today, right? Like in how segregated we are, you know, you have.

Probably close to hundreds of different denominations out there that we chose to draw a line in the sand about something. And there’s goods to that. There’s probably more bad to that, but like, if we can agree that Jesus is the son of God, that he died for our sins, that he Rose raised from the dead conquering death to give us a way to the same.

Mmm. Then I think we can align if we disagree on the rest of it. So we disagree on the rest of it. That’s okay. If they’re baptizing by sprinkling babies and we’re baptizing by, by immersion, do I disagree with it? Sure. But can we still live in unity in the midst of it? Do I need to voice my opinion? So everyone knows that I’m right about my theology and you’re writing about yours.

What does that do to the rest of the world? Yeah. Well, I’m not going to be known for my love, like people aren’t going to look at their church and say, man, I don’t know what’s going on with those people, but there’s something about those people that have.  something was super strange. It’s like weird. Like they care and love in a way that I’ve never seen before.

Like that’s what we’re chasing. And if we chose to live in that way, like what kind of effects are we going to have on people just theology matters. Sure. Does it matter more than love? Absolutely not. And Jesus is clear on that. Paul was clear on that. You can read throughout the epistles. Um, our theology is important, but love is more important, period.

Yeah. And if we can’t live inside of that, we’re living in greater sin. Then getting the theology wrong. Yeah, that’s just the reality of it. But we, we dive back into old covenant thinking his theology matters the most, we believe is the most important. What we stand on is the most important. If we live by these 612 rules, like that’s the most important, all good for its time, extremely important for it’s time, but it’s not the time we live in now.

And we now live in a time where choosing to love God and love people. And then we choose to live inside of that. That’s where we have impact. And normally that that’s where you have. That’s where we find true joy. That’s where you find a true hope in a future, because now you see people for who people really are, you know, God’s salvage, essentially.

God died for them. Like there’s some nation hopeful, salvation for them. Like in the midst of that, if I’m looking at them that way or. You know, as Jesus says, if I’m looking at the least of these and serving the least of these, I’m doing it for him, I shouldn’t see him. So if I’m living in the midst of all of that, like what kind of impact could we have?

Like, that’s the church. I want to be a part of like, that’s the people group that can make an impact and make a difference. Like that’s the place where hope can truly live. Like, that’s what I want to chase after.

Andrew: Absolutely dude. I don’t want to be in a terms and conditions church. I want to be in a Grace Church.

I want to be in a, we live it out here. We’re not perfect, but we’re trying, we’re trying hard. And we’re trying to push everybody towards the same thing church. That’s where I want to be. Mmm. I think that’s what Jesus was. I think that’s why the movement now called Christianity originally called the way, you know, I think there was beauty in calling it the way, because it’s like, what way?

What do you mean? What are you talking about? It’s like, Yeah, let me show ya. Let me, let me teach you the way that I’m trying to learn too. Let me show you it. I’m trying to learn, and you’re going to see ways that I fall short of this thing, but let me show you what I’m trying to aspire to. Um, and let me show you the grace that comes along with it.

So, Mmm. And

Josh: I don’t know.

Andrew: Yeah. If we just live in that. At least our neighbors are going to notice and may be maybe their neighbors and maybe the people in the community and maybe the people far outside the community. Maybe it will be a breakout of, you know, the gospel started with, with Israel. It started with, well, small tribe started with a small nation and the spread to the world, man.

Why couldn’t him do again? Why could you, why couldn’t it happen again? Um, and, and in an authentic and real, and deep and personal way, because


Josh: don’t think it does because we still try to hold onto some of those old covenant practices. I think we miss out on it because we don’t live in the grace as you’re talking about when we don’t live in the love as Jesus commanded, we don’t.

Pursue Jesus. Um, as we should be pursuing Jesus, not for the sake of it’s the right thing to do about to be in relationship with Jesus, right? Like I’m studying spiritual disciplines right now. And like, we don’t practice spiritual disciplines cause it’s what Christians do. Like it’s the right thing to do.

No, we practice spiritual disciplines because one be in a relationship, an intimate relationship with Jesus. And that’s what gets us there. Like I practice these things because I want to be close with Jesus. I want to hear Jesus’ voice. I want to know who Jesus called me to be like. Um, that was, I just wrote this down a little while ago, but like, as we better ourselves, we.

Follow Jesus better in terms of the way that he called us to live. Um, like it just betters things around us. Yeah. But we live in this, like, I just don’t want to sin against God. I don’t want people to look at me because I did the wrong thing. Like we live inside of that. Like, that’s just going back to old covenant thinking and this do’s and don’ts list and like, We miss out on, on the freedom and the hope that we should have in Christ.

I think this is one of the biggest issues with Christians today is we keep going back to this live just about all these commands, but why like get to the root of it. Like it’s not because I want to be a good person. It’s because I don’t want to experience the bondage of sin because I want to love people.

Well, and if, if I’m sending all the time, I’m not gonna be loving people. Well, cause I’m causing harm and, and, you know, Creating wreckage in my path. Um, but when you love Jesus and I love people and I live in that world, um, like things get easier as I love people more. Um, but not only that, like. I live in a hope and I live in a freedom like you.

And we talked about this thing last episode, like when I serve people, like science now tells us that I’m more than I’m more content with my life when I’m giving things away. That’s crazy. Like, that’s pretty counter-cultural, but that’s what Jesus has been saying for 2000 years with his church, uh, we knew right then there’s something to it.

How can we love and sacrifice for those around us and not just for the sake of social justice, right? We’re not like there’s a real thing. We’re trying to get them to, I can help them and fix certain things about things of injustices in the world, but when they die and don’t know Jesus, I’ve done nothing.

Right? The ultimate goal is that they experience this full life. That’s found in crisis and forgiveness is found in Jesus. And can I help them experience that as we journey along the way of. Fixing injustices in our world so they can experience it. This is what it really looks like when you get back to those verses, you know, you will know that we’ll know every hero.

They will know you. You’re my disciple. If you love one another, like how do I live inside of that type of, of difference and sub drawing lines in the sand? Right. I know Jesus to rely on in the sand, right? With the adulterous woman.

Like you’re evil and you’re wrong. If you do these things, he was drawing a line in the sand. We’re all sinners. Anyone else? Not as sir.

Andrew: Yeah. It’s the concept? Not the rule. I think. And man, I can’t say it better than what you just said. It’s the, it’s the concept. It’s the line in the sand. Excuse me. The recognition of like.

Recognize your own sin and, and go from there, you know, and I’m here to meet you there when you recognize your own sin. That’s where Jesus meets us. And, uh, I dunno, man, this Jesus life is confusing at times. It can be tough at times. And if we get focused on the wrong thing, The checklist, you know of, did I do this and not do that?

Um, it can get really tough, but when you live into the, how am I in relationship with Jesus and my trying to take the next right step?

Josh: Yup.

Andrew: That, that the Bible, the new covenant, uh, if I could be sold old to say, if I’m doing the thing, then in the new covenant, um, if I’m living that way, um, then. I might be following Jesus might be trying, I may be putting forth effort and, and I might be poised except to the grace that is in all of that.

I don’t know, man.

Josh: It’s a lot of individuals. I’ve always said this. Like I know people that read their Bible every morning and yeah, they don’t look more like Jesus. Today than they did a year ago or five years ago. What’s the issue? Well, it’s because they’re just, they’re just reading the Bible. They’re not reading the Bible in relationship with Jesus.

Like they’re reading it for more information, more knowledge, maybe for some more ammo. Um, but in all reality, like if you’re reading in a relationship with Jesus, that’s the transformational piece, right? You can go through your entire life. You can never curse. You can never drink. You can do all the right things.

You can always pay your taxes, you should pay your taxes.

You should read your Bible every day and you should go to church every week. And you know what? You’re not a bang. Jesus has commands. You’ve just lived a life that was. Like you wasted it. You didn’t not live the John 10, 10 life. You didn’t not live the life to the full. Yeah. But when you choose to love God intimately who love God with everything and all your being and learn to love God more and more.

And. Deepen that relationship with Jesus. We choose to love people around us in a sacrificial way where I’m putting their needs over my needs over and over and over again. Are we going to take advantage of me at times 100% of the time they’re going to take advantage of it. Okay. 98% of the time they’re gonna take advantage.

That’s the life that makes a difference. That’s the life that I get to live that abundant life, that John 10, 10 life. That’s what Jesus was talking about. When he set up bite in me. Um, and you to be like, that’s what he was chasing after following my commands. Those are the commands he was talking about.

I’m like, don’t waste this life anymore. Like go out and do something with it. Love people like you haven’t loved before dig into a relationship with Jesus in a way that you’ve never dug into it before. Like you want to increase those two pieces. That’s going to be the thing that changes everything. And that’s, what’s going to, people are going to notice you’re digging into those things and people are like, I don’t know, what’s wrong with Andrew.

Like he, he he’s loving people. Like I’ve never seen him before. Like he’s talking about all these things that Jesus doing his life right now. And like, he’s never done this to this level before. Like that’s the piece that becomes a resistible. That’s the piece that becomes attractive. That’s the piece where people like, that’s the piece that starts movements, right?

Like have a bunch of followers of Jesus that are loving living out. Those two commands to the best of their ability living in grace when they’re not. I’m understanding that he’s as ready to forgive when they miss the Mark, but the living in those two pieces, that’s the thing that’s going to make the difference.

That’s the one thing that’s going to change the world. That’s the thing that’s going to get the church back to where the church is supposed to be a place of hope, a place of freedom, a place of, uh, of, uh, of truth in terms of who Jesus is and what he’s

Andrew: done the way. That’s just different. It’s the way you can live.

That’s not the way we all live. It’s different, you know, it’s marked by craziness. It’s marked by something. I want to be a part of. And man, I can’t, I, I can’t say it any better than just what you just said. Mmm. But I want to live that way and I don’t always live that way. Um, I hope that if you’re listening, you don’t think that Josh and Andrew always live that way

Josh: miserably on a regular basis

Andrew: too

Josh: often.

Andrew: That’s true.

Josh: I’m just saying,

Andrew: man. Yeah, that’s right. You’re just quiet sometimes. Um, you’re, you’re an introvert. Maybe. Um, but I’m just saying, man, I want to live that way. I want to inspire to live that way. And I want to, I hope that you see the way I I’m trying to live and that you. Try to duplicate. You try to jump in on it.

You try to get more like Jesus, you try to say, okay, is it possible to live by these ideals? Is it possible to live by the ways that Jesus taught? Is Jesus good? He’s good. I’m going to try. I’m going to give the effort and, uh, I don’t know, man. Um, Try to live by the new covenant it’s worth it. And, um, and if you try it for 30 days, you won’t regret it.

You know, it’s like that money back guarantee

Josh: dig into the new Testament. Dig into the gospel of John. If you don’t read the Bible on a regular basis, that’s a great place to start from the jump into the gospel of Matthew, because it’s going to take you through, on the sermon on the mountain. It’s gonna take you to some pretty powerful parables in terms of how we live this Jesus life.

Mmm. And then start digging in into the rest of, of, of the new Testament and spend some time there. Um, I don’t think you should ever leave the new Testament. Um, so if you’re reading multiple chapters of scripture a day, like, and you want to read through the old Testament. Great, awesome. But make sure reading for the gospels as well, keep yourself centered on the new covenant and who Jesus has called us to be.

Um, I think. Highly important. I’ve been doing it for years. I haven’t, shouldn’t say that. I did it for years. I haven’t done it for awhile. I’ll be honest. I’m then the old Testament in a while. Mmm. Except, you know, a couple of times this year, but for the most part live in the new Testament, because you got to have that strong foundation.

And in all reality, the people we’re talking to probably don’t read their Bible that often not doing the saying to shame you. I’m saying that to say, that’s the statistics, that’s what they say. Most people don’t know what your Bible is, except the Bible on their phone. And they don’t know the last time they opened it, except those kids that like want to look better than everybody else.

And they’re opening the Bible app every day just to open and keep their streak up. But they’re not actually reading anything. The daily verse that’s about it. That’s right.

Andrew: You were saying that. I laughed as confessional. I laughed as you were saying that, because in the last like five, six days when I was on vacation, I was so stinking busy that I don’t think I, I didn’t open my Bible once.

I’m not good at it. It’s hard.

Josh: When you get to those moments where they’re just super rich, right? Like, yeah. They’re like, Jesus is close in this moment. Right. That’s the thing you’re like, I want to get back to that. That’s what I’m chasing. He said always email him. I know, but we keep doing it because those moments are always. Yeah, we’re gonna present them time, present themselves at times that we weren’t expecting.

So we keep those practices up, but we don’t, we’re not good Christians because we do those things. We’re good Christians. Cause we live on Jesus’ commands and to live those things out. Well, we do those things, I think. Yeah. Priorities is highly important. I don’t know how long we’ve gone on Andrew. No, we’ve long time.

Andrew: We’ve talked way, way longer than these seven sentences may made me think we would. But man,

Josh: I

Andrew: feel like there was a lot of good stuff in there. I don’t feel like it. I think there was. And uh, and I’m excited. Listen back to this. Um, and just, I dunno, be challenged myself and hopefully encourage myself by it.

Um, man. Thanks for, thanks for all this good conversation. Thanks for your good thinking on old covenant new covenant. What it means, not even just covenant man, but old relationship, new relationship. Yeah. Like, um, Because because it’s powerful. And I think it’s helpful as kind of a roadmap of like live into the new, you know, living in the modern day, uh, kind of covenant with God and, and be transformed through it and transform others through it, like start a movement through it because I think that’s what it’s set up for men.

And, uh, and I think we. I think I’ve missed it too often in my life. I’ve missed that. Not just like, I haven’t seen you in awhile, I missed it, but I’ve been too focused on other things. So it’s just refreshing to kind of take a minute refocus and think about what does this mean tomorrow? What’s the new covenant meaning tomorrow and the day after and the day after, because that’s.

That’s what it is, it’s in the present day. So thanks for this awesome conversation. It’s been

Josh: good. Thank you. That’s super good. Hey, uh, is this your first time listening to us, please subscribe. That always helps us out. If you’re listening to us on Apple podcasts, please rate us as well. That always helps us climb the charts only want to get this message out.

We want to be the place where hope lives and we want to help others do the same. Um, and that’s kind of the core of what we’re doing. We’re just two normal guys trying to live this Jesus life. She’s life is difficult at times. Sometimes really hard to love people that make it hard to love them. And when they’re attacking us, it’s even harder.

Um, but this is the life that Jesus has called us to, and this is the life that we choose to follow at our core. And our foundation is the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And because of that, we choose to follow him because he, he said he was going to do, because he said right. Was fulfilled. So we love you guys.

Thank you so much for listening, Andrew, as always. It’s good to see my friend.

Andrew: Man. Good to see you. Thanks. .