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Emerge from the Foxhole
Episode No. 60

All too often Christianity feels more like a battle or burden, we don’t believe it doesn’t need to feel that way even if life is difficult. This week we talk through how we emerge from the foxhole and embrace this new life. We dive into the idea of meekness and obedience in our relationship with Jesus. Always easier said than done.

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Josh: Hello. Hello. Hello. We’re just two normal dudes trying to live this Jesus’ life. My name’s Josh. 

Andrew: Hey, I’m Andrew. And we are this Jesus’ life podcast. Josh. It’s good to be with you again. You’re my friend. How you doing? 

Josh: Good to see your sparkle and eyes. Dang. I meant to use that more and I didn’t remember it till right this moment.

Dang. I could have told them how good their eyes looked. Don’t worry, man. Don’t worry. 

Andrew: Chances, 

Josh: you know, just pull 

Andrew: it in day 

Josh: tomorrow. I feel like I dropped the ball this week. I had one thing to do. Let’s just tell people I like their eyeballs. Oh, no, no, no. That, wasn’t it good to see your eyes. That’s what it was.

Andrew: It’s good to see your sparkly eyes. Remember you’ve got to get detailed about it. That’s what makes it weird. 

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I think the fact that you just mentioned an eyes, like that’s weird enough in itself. Like, I don’t think you need. That is weird. You got to make sure it’s like, it’s good to see your eyes.

I can’t make a compliment about their eyes. Like, oh dude, you have really nice looking. And then it’s weird. And it’s like sexual weird, like now. Right. Terrible. Better 

Andrew: to just compliment their eyes like, or dude, like, I love seeing your forearms out of that. Uh, out of that. You know, just all kinds 

Josh: of weird above that same day.

You’re like, no, he’s like, cause the first side they’re going to have a CT he’s hitting on me now. It’s literally 

Andrew: just as weird as the eyes though. That’s all I’m saying. It’s right there. Yeah. 

Josh: I think it’s weird. I think it’s weird than ice because dudes have a weird thing with their muscles. There’s just this like awkward.

I don’t know what it is full of. Love their 

Andrew: muscles. All right. You could compliment somebody on their wrists and their eyes and see what gets the weirder. Nobody cares about risks. You’d be like, Hey, like nice risk man has been working on that. Um, here’s the 

Josh: question now, Andrew you’ve sparked a curiosity in me.

Um, ADI part, do you think is the less like the least notice body part on a human being 

Andrew: the least notice, 

Josh: please talk, maybe talked about 

Andrew: probably ears, dude. Like ears would be one. Yeah, I would say for most people, the ears are just like a non-issue. So if people bring them up, they’d be like, what? Oh, that’s a super weird, you know, Yeah, there’s gotta be up there, but things like wrists, forearms, all of that, like nice chin.

Like you’re got a really great, a really great chin, you know, like that’s a weird thing that people don’t think about a lot. So yeah, man, all of them. Oh, and eyeballs, 

Josh: especially 

Andrew: eyeballs, 

Josh: instead of eyes, I’m gonna spend the rest of the day. Just pondering this question and see what I can come up with a really good I’m thinking like the swell of the back.

Like, I don’t think it’s ever noticed you’re somewhere. Not like where you put a tramp stamp, everything bit and people talking about it. Like that’s the dream stamp location. Little bit above that. Just the right, right. Where your shoulder blades, nobody talks about that part of people’s bodies. And, you know, here’s the real question and I don’t want to do the Googling searching of this cause you’ll go down some crazy rabbit holes on the internet.

Right. Um, but like, I wonder if anyone’s into that, like that’s their fetish, you know, like people have that. Of course, no offense if you have a foot fetish, but like it’s weird, um, to weird, but what if, yeah. What if like your fetish is like, man, I just, I just love me some backs. Well, okay. Okay. That’s cool.

What about your personality? Like your, your back swell guy? Like I wonder when we’re like psychoanalysis, we can do it says it says 

Andrew: something about it. It definitely says something. I don’t know what 

Josh: it says if we’re like having beers and you’re like, dude, I have a foot fetish. What, like I would have preconceived notions of who you are at that point, because you have a flip side.

Right? Like I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t lead with that in a conversation with people. Like I would lead with, you know, it’s good to see your eyes, but I wouldn’t lead with, I got a foot fetish. No, 

Andrew: definitely not. That’s uh, just don’t leave him. Yeah. 

Josh: Although he had one. 

Andrew: If you did have one, maybe you’d want to tell people 

Josh: about it.

Maybe like if it was a big deal to you and you were just trying to find like-minded people that do as friends.

Andrew: Hey, if you’re the swell of the back guy, maybe you do want to talk about it. Cause you’re like, I’m the only one that cares about this. Uh, like you’re just 

Josh: constantly trying to find the other side of you. Like, you have so many and they’re like, no, we’re not going to talk about this. Yeah. There’s a lot to this country.

If you’re out there and you’re like super into back swells, I’m like, that’s your, I want to meet you. Um, now. I might make fun of you. I might ridicule you a little bit, but I do it. I do it in jest. I wouldn’t say it’s because I like you because I don’t know you. Or if I do know you, I just don’t know that part about you.

Um, but I, I would have questions and if you’re cool with like, Having questions thrown at you that may feel like they’re demeaning. Like sh like, yeah, I wanna, I wanna have a conversation. Um, you’re not gonna see my back swell. Like, if that’s why you want to hit me up, I’m not showing it to you. That’s weird.

Nor am I going to. Get back swell photos for it like that strange

man.

Andrew: Should I just cut all of it? Like welcome to episode 60. Here’s the super weird discussion is to our people. This is, this is real talk 

Josh: for Josh. Jump into that conversation with this about weird, strange things, then that’s on you. I’m sorry. And we might have your podcasts because we might not be as guys.

We’re not back to Andrew. Yeah. One thing you’re watching, listening to, or reading that you’re like super into right now, 

Andrew: dude, I’m reading. Actually, I’m not super into those books. I’m reading one book on church discipline. Like not like not disciplined, but like church leadership, uh, not discipline, but like leadership board, board structures, all that stuff.

So that’s super. Not fun, but, uh, give me just a second and I can tell you the title. It’s a really good title. 

Josh: Yeah. 

Andrew: I’ll send you the title. Um, but it’s helpful. And it’s like, we’re going through how does as a leadership team, so that’s good. Um, but then I’m also reading. Uh, knowledge of the holy by awe Tozer, which is good, but I’m only doing these two right now because, um, I’ve been reading like lots of fiction and stuff when I am reading.

So I’m like, all right, I’m going to read some series books. Then I’m going to get back to like fiction or lighthearted or easy or whatever. But I like to read for a little bit before going to sleep at night. Um, but. I am still enjoying survivor we’re on season 13 or 14 at this point, 

Josh: right? 

Andrew: 59 or 49, 9 seasons 49 seasons.

Yeah, it’s insane. 

Josh: So you’re still 

Andrew: airing. So they were going to air. I think they’re coming back shortly with the 50th or 51st, but they paused it due to like all the COVID stuff. Um, and I’m pretty sure they’re going to keep going soon. So it is crazy, but yeah, man, still, still loving survivor, honestly. Um, it’s kind of goofy, but is what it is.

Yeah. What about you men?

Josh: That’s crazy. I’m sorry. I was looking up survivor I’m like, so intrigued when where’s the 

Andrew: story is, if you do start watching, go back to season one and watch it, like it’s pretty fascinating. Two seasons a year. Well, at first it was just the one, but then least I think they got into like hyperdrive and they were doing two or three a year.

Um, Because it’s just 39 days, you know, is the full length of the show. Um, so they could think of in multiple seasons in a 

Josh: year. Yeah. I’ve tried where I’ve never, never been into it, but, uh, what am I reading and listening to right now? 

Andrew: You guys 

Josh: secretly. I am. I’m a huge basketball. So a lot of my things have to do with Maxwell’s as I share these with you.

So yeah, I already told you, I judge you. So I guess you could say, um, uh, I re-read a couple of books on leadership, uh, for the life of me. I’m trying to remember the book’s name. Um, shoot, what the heck it was called. Um, let me see if I can find it really quick, Kendall. Um, oh, you know what? It’d be right here.

Mr. Kendall, dude, Kindle is pretty incredible. If you don’t have a Kindle in your reader, like all the books, whatever you’re done. Okay. Come on you can’t beat that. And Kindles are waterproof. I don’t know if you knew this, but they sell wine. I didn’t know that. So I bought a water cause a majority of my reading and let’s be honest, gets done while I’m in the shower.

And when I say in the shower, I’m really more of a bath. It’s more of a bath, but it’s in shower form. Um, My sister taught me when I was a child. When she called them shower baths, I was down, um, which is a really, really weird memory. But I do remember the day that my sister said, let me introduce you. This has happened a lot in my life where my sister was like, let me get it.

Something’s going to change a lot. And it did. I I’ve done it. Every sentence. Um, like you put a lounge, sharing a shower I’m down like 100%. Now you need hot water. Right. My dad also did the same thing with Jack in the box tacos. He handed one to me when I was like 10. And he’s like, this is going to be the best occupant reunion in your life.

Um, which like at the time was true. Like it was pretty darn good. It still is a good taco. It’s weird, but it’s a good taco. But now that like the taco scene is like drastically changed. Like there’s better tacos out. I should do the same thing back to my dad and see if he like recognizes it, actually go visit.

I’m like, dad, this is the best taco you’re ever going to eat in your life. He won’t remember it. Cause we’ve talked about this before and he’s like, what are you talking about? It’s funny, whatever. Sorry. I can’t remember the name of the other book. The one book is called high impact teams. Another book is learned to lead like Jesus.

And then there’s another book as a blue cover. It’s down the physical books downstairs. I don’t remember what it is. Uh, and then I just started again, it’s been probably 15 years since I’ve read this book, but in a pit with a lion on a snowy day, um, which is mark Batterson’s book from gotta be like early 2000.

Which is also good. And then Andrew turned me on to the rise and fall of Hartsfield podcast. I’ve been, 

Andrew: I should have said that. Oh, there’s seven episodes. 

Josh: Yeah. They took a week off at some point. I don’t know when it was, I was just listening to one of them and it said that it’s a normal thing, but I just started episode seven.

I don’t know when it came out. Let me pull 

Andrew: it up, I think a couple months ago. Yeah. It’s like Wednesday, they come out, dude. It’s good. It’s it’s like but it’s good. 

Josh: Yeah. You don’t know the story of Mars hill. I think it would. It would describe this story for you, but essentially it’s the rise and fall of a church, right?

Like Marcel imploded on itself for a variety of different reasons. And they kind of dig into that. But what I like about it. Like Christian Christianity. Today’s the one that produces it and they like is really good. Like well-produced content, like, yes, great storytellers. Like, um, I’m rather impressed that the Christian media is knocking it out of the park like this.

Cause it’s not, 

Andrew: I love when Christians do stuff with absolute excellence, man, you know, because, and I love that because growing up, I always felt like. Christian media. And often music was usually like second or third class, you know, like, Hey, the message is good. So the quality is not as good. And it’s like as like do stuff with excellence.

So you’re right. Like they, they go all the way. And I’m hopeful that like this show, this podcast that they’re doing has, uh, has made some waves and, and like has grown a lot and reach. And I’m really hopeful that a lot of. Churches will benefit from it, you know? Cause it like, it is the story of Mars hill.

So it’s kind of incredible. Cause they, they went from like zero to 15,000 plus people. Super quickly. They were like the first available on an iPod, you know, that you could listen to their services on an iPod. They were the first us church on there. Like when that platform rolled out, like they did all these crazy online things that were way ahead of their time.

Honestly, um, that group that made them like one of the first. More modern style, mega churches, you know, but then it was kind of, it was built around Driscoll’s personality a lot. So, and, and that’s not unique to Mars hill. They were just so huge. 

Josh: Yes. 

Andrew: Yes. I’m like good overall man like that. So many people can listen and be like, oh, there’s elements of that in my church, or what elements of this exist in my leadership that I’m having as blind spots.

You know, I just hope a lot of questions like that are asked and that. They’re adapt. So they don’t have a implosion, you 

Josh: know? Yeah. It’s like, what was the question you asked or whatever? I hope this changes things. My response is like, now it’s not going to, my response was people love power, and we change facts that I had to make them fit our positions.

So we don’t have to change. It’s always going to happen. 

Andrew: Hey, dude, if it, if it changes a few leaders, then, uh, then it’ll be net good. You know, cause like church hurt. 

Josh: Right. I liked how they went through, like they gave, they gave a clear understanding. So Marcel kind of really took off in the early two thousands.

Um, like that’s when they saw exponential growth. Um, and like they went through like, what was it like in the early two thousands? What was the church doing? And what were the, who were the voices in the church? And what was this new phenomenon? And the new phenomenon was this idea of. Celebrity pastors, like pastor church is getting built on the backs of the talents of their pastors.

Um, and like, they got to that. So like, like you went into like the Rick Warren phenomenon and purpose-driven life and you know how that, that model was built and, you know, secret friendly and all those kinds of things. I’m not sure I’m playing any of those things. I think healthy churches have elements of a lot of those things to attract people, but I’m just not feeling.

Those the celebrity piece. Um, I think that’s just a pressure that anyone’s going to fall under and there’s plenty. Like I would say I’ve been a pastor for a long time and ran in pastor circles for a long time. And there is, I would say. 98% of the pastors that I’ve interacted with wanted large platforms.

We’ll say 90% of the pastors, because now I’m thinking of like friends that I want offend them. Um, but, uh, we’re seeking huge platform and I’m, I’m putting myself in that same boat. I’m not saying you look at you and pointing the finger at you and pointing the finger at myself as well. Um, like all through my early twenties, majority of my twenties, like I was seeking a large platform and figuring out how to get it, because that was the model that was in the street.

Um, and most pastors don’t get it or like they, yeah, they just, they chase things that just, God’s not giving to them and they got to move on, um, and be who God’s called them to be. Um, and I think that’s where the destruction starts to come into play because when you get it, what are you gonna do with Anat?

Like you think you’re the hot shit. Like you’re, you’re the guy you’re this. And, and the reality is in their circles, they are the guy. Like you look at, and I’m not, I’m not, I’m gonna use him as an example. I’m not saying anything bad about them. I think they have a great ministry, but you look at like an elevation church with Steven Furtick, right?

Elevation church is Steven Furtick is as much, which is probably those inside of elevation would like to say, it’s not, but you lose Steven Furtick and you cut your attendance in half in a heartbeat, right? Like. It’s built on him and whether that’s good or bad, you can debate that, whatever. Um, that’s we’re not gonna debate it here.

Um, but like, There’s in, in his circles. He is he’s at the shit. Like he is the guy. Um, so yeah. How easy would it be for you to be the guy in those two to end up in crazy weird places and watch, you know, implosion happen all around you. Like it’s inevitable and we see it all the time. We see it in small churches.

We see it in large churches, even in small churches. Like you’re the guy, right? Like if you’re not careful, you don’t build healthy systems. You don’t actually. Live in shared leadership, um, like you’ll end up becoming the guy. And then it’s really hard to get outside of that comfort zone because we like power.

We like money, we like influence. Um, those are all really tantalizing things. Um, so I, you know, Paul speaks against them, saw. Um, and we ended up in those things, like, you know, I think I’ve said this on the podcast before, but like, um, all, you know, all power corrupts with not held accountable. Um, and you’ve got to, you know, thankfully your churches, you know, working through that book, but like you’ve got to build structures that force your leaders to be held to.

Well, it’s the only way. It’s the only way this works. Um, and I know that’s hard and you know, all that, but, um, yeah, you know, that means as the key leader of an organization, like you don’t always get your way. Yeah, that’s hard. That’s hard to leave now. You don’t want to be so overbearing your authority that nothing can get done.

There’s so much bureaucracy like great. The lanes, make sure the lanes are solid and then let everyone stay in their lanes and run, um, yeah, without helping lanes to be created. And then making sure that overlap does, like, I’ve been a part of churches where like there has been lanes created, um, There’s so much crossover in those lanes constantly because structure was never enforced that.

Now you end up in this really weird place where either, you know, um, the authority that’s supposed to be the authority as an acting like the authority, or there’s too much oversight from the authority and the people, um, that, you know, they’re not able to make decisions or do anything without like, you know, jumping through sevens.

Um, so like there’s a delicate balance. It’s not, it’s not science, it’s an art to live in those things. But, um, and unfortunately, I shouldn’t say unfortunately for church work, you know? Yes. We have boards. Um, a lot of, you know, boards function where the senior pastor is like, he’s the voice? He’s the man or she’s the man, if that’s your, that’s your theological theological background.

Um, But even in like church world is like, it’s not yours. Like, even if you started it, like, you’ll sit here, I’ve started it. Um, but it’s not like right from the get go, I can be removed. Right. Like that’s true reality. Yeah. If the, if the others decided tomorrow, And at some point we’ll have overseers, but we don’t have him yet.

So the elders function, this role until overseers are in place, but the elders could remove me tomorrow or today. Um, that’s a possibility it’s nevermind. It’s not like I get to build something and then sell it. That’d be sweet. And I thought that’s what the business 

Andrew: dude, 15 years from now, if you know, God willing, if he’ll, city’s still growing and thriving and doing all kinds of good things, uh, Yeah, I think so.

But you know, say you have like couple of thousand people there, many more or whatever. Um, and a lot of people are going to look and say this, Josh man, he did it. He did this. And it’s like, yeah, That’s a natural bent is to start looking at the person at the top and saying like, this was from them. Like, I don’t know what we’d do without them.

And, uh, I don’t know. I think when you start to get success, that might be the moment where it’s hardest to. Do what we’re talking about in a minute here, like you have day two of this, this week of the hope study that says, add meek to your vocabulary. That’s the title of day two, practicing humility. And, uh, and man, I haven’t ever built a church from scratch to a huge thing in the community.

Um, I can’t imagine all the pressure, like I can’t imagine a lot of the pressures that come with that. Guess what those might be, but I can’t, it’d be hard for me if I was in that position to say like this isn’t mine a little bit, you know what I mean? Like, it’d be hard to stay. Open-handed wouldn’t you see that kind of success?

Whether it’s with a church or a business or a book you write or shoot. If our podcast ever has a million lessons or some crazy thing, it’s going to be really hard to know. White knuckle it and say like, no, I deserve this. This is mine. I built it. It was my effort versus like the open-handed posture of like now, like I was excited about this and I felt like it was in God’s will.

And I, I just took the next right step that God kept putting in front of me. Um, but it’s his, like anybody that listens to our podcast, I’d just have to assume it’s like, Because, you know, the Lord is blessing us to have some audience, you know, I can’t sit here and assume like, we’re so great at what we say or do or think that people want to listen.

It’s like, no man far from it. Like we gotta assume it’s it’s God all the way. And, uh, we just get to be kind of a part of it and, and often get to have. A next step in, in whatever that thing is, podcast or church or business or whatever. 

Josh: So yeah. What are your thought to like yeah. Like if you’re a key leader in some, in a group, in an organization, in a church, in a business, um, and this is, this is the model you want to live by where it’s, it’s not about you.

God gets the glory. You want longevity. So you’re like, you’re going to make intentional choices where you’re not the decision maker. Right. Like, you’re going to have to take, you’re going to have to make intentional choices where your want is not the decision that gets made. Um, and that’s really the only way it works.

And the crappy part of that is it’s not like, you know, w you know, we’re early on in our process of planning hill, city. Um, a lot of decisions still come through me, but you’re trying to give away decision-making power as best as you possibly can, making sure you stay within the culture. You don’t want people running off outside of the culture, but like put up the guide rows and make, and then give away.

Like, I remember, I don’t remember it was some leadership book probably, but like the primary goal of an executive team or a leadership team is to figure out ways to give away authority. Right? Like push decision-making far, as far as you possibly can away from your, your, your courtroom. Um, Which is hard to do.

And the crab part is like, even if you do it really well in the beginning, it doesn’t mean that you won’t consolidate halfway through and bring all the power back, right? Like it’s just a practice you have to constantly do in your life. If you have to constantly be giving away decision-making power to those rooms.

Does that mean they’re going to fail at times and hurt the organization? Yes, 100%. But the reality is you’re going to fail at times and aren’t the organization too. So how is it any different than they’re doing it? Um, do your due diligence train well, and all those kinds of things, but like, you’ve got to give people opportunity to make decisions, or you’re not like he’ll sit, he takes off, you know, we’re running, whatever we’re running big numbers.

Um, yo, so because of that, you have a, you have a pretty intensive leadership structure and how things are built. Um, I forgot where I was going with this. Um, so here’s your leadership structure? It’s trying to build you’re making decisions. Um, oh, that’s what it was going to be. Um, if you’re not giving away leadership, um, you’re giving away decision-making power to your leaders.

You’re not going to keep good leaders. Yeah, this is the reality of it. Like, so eventually you’re going to, you’re going to plateau yourself because you can’t give away authority. Um, so like, even if it’s a selfish reason that you want something to grow, um, the way it grows is you have to empower your leaders around you, or they’re never, they’re never going to stick around and they’re going to leave you, um, because it can’t handle.

And I think it’s a good sign of your leadership. If you look around and be like, yeah, they’re all mediocre leaders around me. I think it says a lot about who you are. Like it’s a bunch of leaders around you. They don’t, they don’t want good leaders. Don’t want to stick around. That’s 

Andrew: true, dude. And I, I’m not a pastor, but I get to, to professionally work in what I consider to be a ministry, you know, a nonprofit, a Christian, nonprofit, where I get to do like really cool marketing work, but I fully consider it a ministry type occupation.

And, uh, Man. I think it doesn’t matter what context you’re in. If you’re in a team, if you’re in a leadership role, if you’re in a position of influence, you know, because leadership, isn’t always just like 50 people report to me. It’s I have a position of influence, you know, or I influence people. Um, whether people report to me or not, um, man, there are like humility.

A lot of intentional choices. I don’t think humility is something that you stumble into. You accidentally look up and you’re like, I’m a humble person. Who’s always an amazing team player. It’s like, no, it takes effort actually. And lots of intentionality to live in that place of humility. Maybe that’s just because of me being.

Uh, having a natural bent towards pride and towards like achievement and look what I did and all of that. But, uh, I don’t know, dude, I was just thinking there’s this huge project. One of my teammates is running point on and I just made the intentional choice. Weeks ago. I’m like, I’m going to do anything that I can to support this work and see it thrive because this is our team’s major work right now.

And there’s so many other big projects coming where. We’re going to need to be pinch hitters for whatever, or for each other. So if that means me running slides, while they present and managing breakout rooms great on zoom, like I’m in, you know, if that means me jumping into help, present. Awesome. That’s me pull in videos and or data or whatever in the background, like great.

Let’s do it. But, and I don’t say that to say, look at me, big, humble. Cause that’s. I’m not good at that naturally. Um, by any means, um, I’m just saying it to say it is a natural or it’s a choice. Uh, every time to say I’m going to take a posture of giving away in influence or not trying to take influence for myself.

Um, leadership. I’m going to do something to make others shine. Like I’m going to not try to see my teammate in the spotlight and tranq that I want to like magnify the spotlight on them and just get a win as a team and let them take credit, you know? So anyway, it’s just, it takes intentionality to be humble.

Uh, I think, and that add meek to your vocabulary is a cool way to say it because. You know, the Bible talks about the meek shall inherit the earth. That’s in the sermon on the Mount. It’s one of the beatitudes and it’s like totally opposite of what you would think. You know, where Jesus is. Like, don’t worry.

Like the kingdom is all upside down. Like this world’s kingdom is, is way different than the actual kingdom of heaven that you’re living in. And the people that look meek now are actually. Going to inherit the world. You’re going to inherit a lot because they chose to live in meekness, you know, um, So, I dunno, 

Josh: that’s a little rambling just to catch everybody up.

I know, I know we’re like almost 30 minutes into this podcast already, but, um, we’re, we’re processing through the hope study, um, which is an eight week, eight week excited to help people find hope and more importantly, keep it. And we think that hope is found in relationship with Jesus. So we want to help you last relationship with Jesus flesh foster relationship with people and fully embrace the gospel.

That’s the goal, um, this week. So we’ve, we’ve covered. I don’t know. This is like the fifth or sixth episode of this series. Um, we covered the preamble, which is the overview. We talked about. Grace changes everything. We talked about faulty attributes, characteristics that we apply to God that aren’t true.

Last week, you talked about relationship on censored and Andrew’s wife called that pornographic. Um, the title it’s not, she just has a dirty mind. This week, this week is a merge from the foxhole. Like how do we embrace the student life? Uh, think it’s first Corinthians 11. It’s it definitely. Or, sorry, second Corinthians 11.

It’s definitely second Corinthians. I don’t know if it’s an 11. Uh, Paul talks about being a new creation. The oldest gone, and the new has come. Um, and how do we actually embrace that new life? So that’s kind of us emerging from the foxhole. So the idea is like, um, Uh, you’re beat up protected. You’re you’re trying to kind of keep everybody out.

So you stay safe. Um, how do you actually come out and kind of see the light, um, is this idea, um, and one of those weeks, like Andrew said is, is add meek to your vocabulary. Um, I like the word meek mainly cause Jesus used it, but the definition of meek is this, and this is according to Webster’s dictionary.

Um, cause we’re smart. Um, but it’s enduring injury with patients and without resentment. Wow. Dang. As we talk about it in this sentence, like it’s choosing not to be the spotlight, like Andrew just said, choosing not to get what you want and not only do that. But do that with patients and without resentment, for those that are getting what you don’t have.

Um, and as you were talking and kind of sharing what you just did, like the thought that came into my mind is, you know, it’s really hard for you to be humble and meek. If you’re not comfortable with who you are, Yeah, totally. I think a lot of people get into a struggle. They can’t celebrate other people’s successes because they’re just not comfortable with who they are yet.

They want to be somebody else. They want to have a different platform. They want to have different kinds of influence. They want to, whatever they want something else they don’t have. Yeah. Um, and, and they’re just not comfortable with who they are. And I think as you walk with Jesus and let Jesus do work on your heart, I think the better you become.

Being okay with who you are, what you’re good at, what you’re not good at and being okay with. I’m not saying if you’re not good at something don’t work at getting better at it. That’s not the conversation, but I am saying like, you want to be, um, for my context, you want to be the breast best preacher in the entire world.

That’s your goal. Yeah. Um, well I know this, I’m not the best preacher in the entire world. I’m never going to be the best preacher in the entire world. Can I preach? Yes. Um, but I’m not going to be, there’s going to be rooms. I’m going to walk into that. I’m not the best preacher in the room and that’s a shame.

Um, I’m just going to be me by the best leader in the entire world. No, I’m not. I’m, I’m not even close. I’m not even, probably in the top 60% of leaders. Um, but uh, I can work at it and I know where I’m at and I can be honest with where I’m at and, you know, just take the right next step. Like Andrew said, I think when we get really comfortable with just who we are, who God’s greatest to be and being content with those things, um, I think it’s a lot more easier to be humble.

I think it’s a lot more easier to be meek, a lot more easier to allow other people to have success also this way, have success on your work in your back. Yeah. So like you didn’t work, you built something, whatever it is you put in the time and energy into this next project, or you put in the time and energy and to, uh, Uh, this next event that you put on or whatever happens to be, and someone else got the credit for it.

Um, You gotta be okay with that. Now, hopefully that person is also functioning in humility and gives credit every where credit is due. But like, can you celebrate as a team at the team one, even though you didn’t individually get the credit? Um, I think for a lot of people that’s really hard to do. And I think oftentimes it’s hard to do because we’re just not comfortable with us.

Like we’re insecure. Um, we don’t like us and who we are, where we’re at in life and, and that keeps us from ever attaining any. Um, I don’t know if you’ve been around insecure people, but like, even if they hide it really well, it seeps through. Um, and like, you just don’t want to be around that. Like it’s, it’s unattractive, it’s painful to be in a relationship with those kinds of people.

Like, it’s just, it’s just not a world you want to live too. So you don’t want to be that person for other people, like deal with the insecurities deal with the junk, have those conversations with Jesus. Let him start working on those. 

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. And men, you know, before this, we were talking about Mars hill and, uh, and that podcast, and also just how that relates to so much leadership, um, which is where we’d been this whole time.

But, um, the next day, and the hope study, uh, day three of this week is called obedience is a scary word. And, uh, I don’t know. I wanted to get your thoughts on, on why you think it’s important to go through kind of humility and obedience and kind of do it the way you’re doing it, because I can, I have some guesses, uh, but I don’t know.

What are your thoughts on, on obedience and what sparks in you when you hear you should obey Josh, like Josh, you should have. Someone or something? What, what comes up? 

Josh: Yeah, I think obedience is a scary word because we probably all have stories. I know I do have stories of. Someone demanded your obedience and it caused harm to you.

Um, like it wasn’t in love it, wasn’t in caring. It wasn’t in, um, what’s best for you as 100% selfish. Uh, and, uh, beatings was demanded. Like we all have those kinds of stories where we’ve seen those stories. Like, we don’t like the word don’t tell me what to do. Right. Like it’s not the world, but the reality is there isn’t anyone that is more caring.

There is anyone that’s more loving. There isn’t any one that has your best interests at heart in the greater scheme of the kingdom than Jesus himself. Right? When he demands obedience, when he asks for obedience, it’s not a bad word. Like it shouldn’t leave gross taste in your mouth. Like he’s trying to get you to where he wants you to go.

He wants you to experience this full life. He wants to experience a life of adventure, life of making an impact. He wants you to have all these things, but you got to deal with the junk that’s going on in your life. So you can get to those things and to deal with that junk. You got to follow his lead. And the first, the first day of this, this week is, is extra.

Let go of the reins, like who’s in control of your life. Are you in control or God is in control, like, well, God’s in control. Is he really though? Like when you look at let’s just w w I know we’ve used this illustration a thousand times, but I think it’s helpful when you look at all the things that are wrong with you, sins that you commit, you know, anger, you know, lust, um, uh, hurting people around you, whatever you can go on and on and on and on.

I picked the ones that hit most people. Yeah. I’m like, if that’s where you’re at and you’re like, it’s up to me to like take care of all those things. And when I don’t take care of those things, I want, I’m a crappy Christian and God doesn’t like me as much as he used to. Um, like it’s this weird, um, um, Popularity game that all of a sudden who can be the best.

So God loves them more. Um, but in, in all of that, what’s, what’s actually happening is you’re not giving up control of your life. You’re saying, well, God doesn’t want me to sin in these ways. So I’m going to figure out all the solutions. So I don’t send in these ways. You can’t really find it in scripture that that’s, that’s the methodology.

It’s, it’s really not up to you. It’s up to Jesus. Like it’s clear of the gospel that you have no power over sin without Christ. Um, but when Jesus takes control of those things, it’s amazing how much easier it is to fight and combat and change behavior that leads to those sense, um, which is kind of. Um, it feels passive aggressive or passive aggressive.

It feels passive. When I say that, you’re like, well, then I just kind of sit around and let Jesus change me. No, you’re an active participant in that relationship. You’re just not the leader of that relationship. That’s a hard thing. I think for a lot of us is we’re not in control. We can be, and God will let you be in control of your life, or at least make you feel like you’re in control of your life, own life, make the decisions, how you want them to make, how you want to make them.

We call that sin. And we, you know, scripture is very clear that sin, all of a sudden leads to destruction. So, you know, God will give you what you want, if that’s what you want. Um, but when we choose to live in relationship with Jesus, like we’re not in control anymore. Um, God’s in control. So we have to constantly want.

Practice meekness practice, humility. Um, remind ourselves, Hey, we’re not in control. God’s in control. God’s got this. Um, I’m just going to do and be obedient to what God is asking me to do. So when you’re a relationship with Jesus and you’re reading whatever in, in, in the scripture in God’s recorded word and you know, something pops out and you start down this conversation with, with Jesus to have this conversation.

Um, maybe it’s, maybe it’s a relationship, a past relationship, um, um, you know, during your college days that you’re still kind of holding onto or not thinking about, but like there’s some things that happen in that relationship, things that were said ways that you treated people, um, ways that you got hurt, um, and you don’t want to deal with any of those things.

So you’ve kind of just like pushed off that conversation. Don’t want to deal with it and talk about it. Um, not even with Jesus. And like, that’s the thing that’s where obedience lives. Like, that’s where, that’s the thing that Jesus wants to talk about. Um, that’s the thing that Jesus wants to get dig into because he’s going to help you find some freedom and some places he’s going to help you.

You have the ability to conquer some things like, but we don’t want to get into those things and be obedient because cause it’d be, it could be a small step of, Hey, Hey Josh, I want you to talk about this experience. Yeah, well, to talk about that experience is obedience. They’re not talking about that experience would be disobedient, right?

And we’ll say it a different way to talk about that experience is putting God in control to not talk about that experience. It says, God, my way is better, right? Yeah. That’s what’s happening there. So now you have this conversation with Jesus and go kgs. We’ll talk about it. Um, but you don’t want to talk about the emotion of it.

So you just talk about the facts. Yeah. Jesus like, Hey, how did you feel when you went through. Well, that’s the question, right? So is God in control. And I asked her the question, or am I going to be in control? And I’m doing, I’m going to say, yeah, we’re going to move past that. I didn’t actually hear Jesus.

That wasn’t Jesus. Right. It was, you know, it was my own mind. That was the enemy. The enemy wants me to open up that. Great. And you can go down, we keep playing this illustration out and playing like, there’s going to be all of these moments where you’re going to choose to be, let Jesus be in control.

You’re in control. And this is what will be dances. Beyonce’s let Jesus being control and do what he’s asking you to do. It’s in love. It’s it’s to help you out. It’s not to harm you. Um, and I think so often we apply human, uh, authority to Jesus, and that’s just not. We’ve all had crappy leaders. We’ve all had, you know, some of us may even have crappy parents.

I’ve been blessed and didn’t, um, but like that’s the reality of it. It could be true of a lot. Yeah. Um, so like obedience has been demanded from us and it’s harmed us in the process of it all. So we’re really scared of it. And I get it. Um, you have broken humans, um, trying to do things and they’re going to harm you.

You’ve you’ve been led by someone, an insecure parent and insecure leader and insecure teacher, um, and like felt the repercussions of that. I don’t know if you’ve ever been led by those kinds of people, but they’re miserable to be led by. Because everything is a game. Everything is like trying to protect them.

Nothing is really true. Um, and all those rigor roles. So I know a Biance has hurt you, but what I think, what the point we’re trying to get across and your NEI is it’s worth giving Jesus as a shot. Yeah, no, it’s terrifying. I know it can be scary. Yeah. But when it comes down to do, I want to do Rwanda Jesus and controller me in control, or when you’re not in control, it feels extremely scary, right?

Like that feels uncensored in a lot of ways, going back to the pornographic word, um, that feels vulnerable. It feels intimate. Like it feels all these emotions that we don’t typically like to feel because we feel exposed. There’s a story out there. I’ll share this one. Last thing, Andrew. And I’ll hand it back.

Brittany Renee brown has a book. If you haven’t listened to Bernay brown, Renee brown is a vulnerability expert. She, yeah. Great, great content. Her very first book is, is an H has an audible form, but don’t buy it because it’s not her. And it’s miserable. Whoever the actual audio person is just read the book.

That was like the first audio book I ever bought or like when I started getting out of the books, this is horrible. She’s a great communicator. She’s she used to be a Christian and I don’t think she’s a practicing Christian anymore, um, that she’s made her journey, but, um, She, uh, she tells a story of when she was, was at a conference.

Um, and you know, she’s meeting with the interpreter, the sign language interpreter beforehand, um, to go, Hey, as in the question was like any words that you use on a regular basis that I need to come up with an illustration for. Um, and she’s like, well, Well vulnerability expert. So like vulnerability, I guess I’m going to say a lot.

Um, and she like gives her a couple of options of like, what about this? What about that? And then she takes her hands and like puts them on your chest. Like she’s wearing a vest. And then like uncensored rips her vest open by kind of exposing her chest. And she’s like, that’s it that’s vulnerability.

That’s what it feels like. And, and I think that’s, that’s true to this conversation, right? Like, like that’s what we’re trying to do with God. We’re trying. Pull it open and expose and, and oftentimes that’s how we feel when we choose to get uncomfortable and give up control over our lives to somebody else or to God.

Um, it feels like I’m exposing myself, I’m vulnerable, but like we talked about this in the, in week two, um, going all the way back like this. The V like this is what vulnerable relationship looks like. It was sin that close Adam and Eve before that they were completely naked exposed before God, both metaphorically and physically.

Um, and I think oftentimes we’re terrified at that feeling and I get why we’re terrified. I have a feeling I’m I’m with you. Um, but like that’s the feeling we have to push into to press into, um, for us to really embrace and get out of, get out of the fog. 

Andrew: So good. So good. And so right. And man, I know you have a hard stop in three minutes, so I’m going to squeeze this in real fast, but, um, obedience, vulnerability, all of it, uh, that we’ve been talking about when you live in that and you give up the reins to Jesus and allow him just allow the Lord to lead you in the process of sanctification.

It’s slow. We’ve talked about the list of 50 things that God might want to change in you over time, but it takes you through one or two or, or maybe knocks one off slowly. That actually affects a lot of the others. And, uh, anyway, man, I had a moment the other night where I was driving, uh, tar church, uh, and.

I thought about a time, just about a year before that, where I was driving same route for the same thing. And, uh, anyway, I had a moment where it was like, wow, God, like in this last close to a year, like there’s some things that, like, I know that you’ve changed in me. You know? Like you’ve, you’ve sanctified me a little bit more in that time, in a way that maybe others can’t notice or don’t see or whatever, but I sure do like.

And I know it’s not by my power or my will, that, uh, that those things changed. And I’m just, you know, it was just a moment to say, to say, thank you. And to be like, you know, you feel like you’re in the trenches day in and day out of just. Getting things done. And for me, parenting and homesteading and all these things, we do that, that keep us busy.

Um, but when you take a minute and look up and have a moment to reflect on six months ago at the same time or a year ago at the same time or whatever you might. You will see ripples of like, wow, God has been doing some sanctification work in my life. And I, I see the way I live differently now, even if I haven’t felt it so much day in and day out that intentional, like yeah, vest, open vulnerability and obedience.

It works. Like that’s what the Lord works through in us. So, um, man, I know you gotta go, but, uh, I know, I feel like we just got into the meat of this, but maybe we’ll revisit a little bit of it when we record next week. But, uh, thanks for your time a friend. 

Josh: No. Yeah. And with this whole thing, You know, we’re talking about meekness and vulnerability and, and obedience with God.

Um, and a lot of those same attributes come into play with people, right? Like we’ve gotta be humble and we gotta be vulnerable with people for fully going to be known by people. And I think oftentimes we forget that as well. We’ll eventually get there when we talk about these things. But, um, we, uh, uh, we oftentimes feel like, uh, Well, as long as they can be completely honest with God, then everything’s good.

And that’s just not the life that Jesus designed for us. Like we gotta be really sure with people we miss out on so much when we choose not to be relationships, God’s important. It’s the key, it’s the source of it all. Um, but it also wants us to, to be in relation with other people. Um, we’ll probably come back to this this week, next week as well.

Um, and dig into how do we like rest in relationship Matthew 11? Um, it was that look. So just talk about that a little bit more, cause I think it’s worth it. How do you make sure you create boundaries in your life or triggers in your life that reminds you, you’re going back to where you were rather than continuing to revise where God’s wanting you be.

And that’s what we’ll finish out. But Andrew, as always my friend, it’s good to see your sparkling. 

Andrew: Good to see you. My man,

thanks for listening in our show. It really means a lot to us and we hope that it helps bring you closer in your relationship with Jesus and with others. 

Josh: And it also helps us out. If you rate our podcast or leave us a review on whatever platform you’re listening on, you can also follow us on Instagram and the Facebook.

Now sharing this with your friends. Isn’t just to get the word out of the podcast. We believe that we have the message of hope that’s found in the gospel of Jesus Christ and you sharing. This has the ability to transform the lives of the 

Andrew: people around you. We want to hear it. You can email [email protected]

You can message us on Facebook and Instagram, or you can just visit [email protected] But seriously, thanks for this.

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